Plot hole city

[M'Sharak]

It's okay to have Nero as an amateur historian that knows something of the infamous Captain Kirk...
But it's quite another to insist that he JUST HAPPENS to have the know how to calcuate temporal apatures for a signularity made by a substance that's just come on to the scene. It's DEUS EX all the way.

Hold on sport... Nero's the captain of a ship that essentially travels at FTL speeds, on a fairly regular basis, and [I don't believe it's reasonable] to think that there will ever come a time where a guy can get even a learner's permit to fly so much as a lowly warp-shuttle, without first proving beyond any doubt that you've got a relatively remarkable grasp of spatial, temporal, and quantum mechanics, and how to calculate all their possible interactions.

<snip>

There, now - isn't that a little more polite than what you had? Try to remember that, when you're posting outside TNZ, you may wish to consider adjusting your choice of wording accordingly.

 

[MacLeod]

Yes, I am sure all those skippers out there have degrees in meteorology. (commence Roll Maneuver Atlantis:) :Atlantis you're looking good)

I know how a hurricane works and I don't have a degree in meteorology.. What's your problem with this?? I'm sure a mining ship captain in the 24th century knows the dangers and complexities of black holes. Why wouldn't he?? You haven't really explained why this is such a huge problem for you to understand. Everyone else seems to get it.

Uh, can you look at a radar map and predict exactly when and where the next hurricane is going to form? You see the problem there. That's about as big of leap from "miner" to "black hole specialist".

In the days before satelites, weather radar etc... When all they had to go by was what was on the horizon or could be felt either by the wind or the sea it seems likely that the crews of ships would have an idea of what the weather was going to do.

 

[Gojira]

Yes, I am sure all those skippers out there have degrees in meteorology. (commence Roll Maneuver Atlantis:) :Atlantis you're looking good)

I know how a hurricane works and I don't have a degree in meteorology.. What's your problem with this?? I'm sure a mining ship captain in the 24th century knows the dangers and complexities of black holes. Why wouldn't he?? You haven't really explained why this is such a huge problem for you to understand. Everyone else seems to get it.

Uh, can you look at a radar map and predict exactly when and where the next hurricane is going to form? You see the problem there. That's about as big of leap from "miner" to "black hole specialist".

I am an amateur meteorologist and astronomer it is a hobby. I can find access to computer models that assist in weather forecasting and also star maps. I also have a network of friends that are meteorologist and astronomers that I talk with.

Therefore in the Nero's time he could be an amateur astronomer just like today's amateur astronomer and meteorologists that have high tech equipment to play with and experts to talk with.

So it is entirely plausible that either Nero himself or someone else that he knows an can access that information and calculate Spock's arrival.

 

[number6]

Or he could know because he is a captain of a mining ship that does business in space.

 

[Amaris]

How can he calculate the black hole's trajectory?! I mean, he'd need some kind of calculating, computational device. A miner? With a computation machine? Don't you understand how crazy that is?!

 

[number6]

How can he calculate the black hole's trajectory?! I mean, he'd need some kind of calculating, computational device. A miner? With a computation machine? Don't you understand how crazy that is?!

That's pretty far fetched, given that we have such technology now that we wouldn't have it 300 years later.

 

[Psion]

Heck, as much as I love to harp on the film's faults, I don't count an understanding of black holes and temporal vortices against Nero. He's a mad man, not a moron, and there wasn't enough time devoted to his backstory to establish he wasn't able to run what might be simple calculations by the late 24th century.

For once I'm forced to agree with Number6 et al.

 

[number6]

Now you know you have a weak argument when the even the haters are inclined to agree with me in this!!

 

[Saquist]

It's really not hard for people to connect the dots.. You don't need a line of dialog to explain every little thing.

You use that one line to exaggerate your way out of the specifics. I say Necessary information and you of course hear the words "Every little thing."

Story-telling isn't an exercise in some pre-school picture of dots. It's not supposed to be person telling a story of events and people. In these types of stories there must be a flow to the logic. If Nero having a greater education than his proffession required were the ONLY problem in this movie it wouldn't be worth picking at, at all.

Really?? You're going there? Hello!! 24th century.. Romulans with quantum singularity warp drive..

That's a stero-type not a argument. I understand the purpose of stereo-types but this one is out landish. You just said to the effect that all Romulans understand the nature and the working of a Drive system in their naval ships.

Whether he's a miner or not, Nero is the captain of a massive mining vessel from the 24th century, riding around in a big space ship.. You have yet to prove to me that he wouldn't know about the mechanics of a black hole.

It's alright to believe what you want that you think makes the story work. However it only serves to suspend my belief.

Again, everyone who watched this film seems to get it.

Yes...of course...I forgot that logic works by consensus here on the TrekBBS...my-bad....

------------

Heck, as much as I love to harp on the film's faults, I don't count an understanding of black holes and temporal vortices against Nero. He's a mad man, not a moron, and there wasn't enough time devoted to his backstory to establish he wasn't able to run what might be simple calculations by the late 24th century.

For once I'm forced to agree with Number6 et al.

He left one of if not THEE GREATEST MIND in Star Fleet from the 24 century at the front door of a Federation Outpost of a Planet he was about to attack....

....and you don't think that's moronic?
I would love to play a game of chess with just 2 rooks and 2 bishops and see how far you get with your whole army....

 

[F. King Daniel]

Just to put this in perspective: Khan, the genetically-engineered superman genius somehow didn't realize that space is three dimensional. His people could fly a starship 300 years ahead of them, but he didn't realize that there's an up and down as well as a left and right.

Spock Prime would not have gotten help or anything had he not bumped into Kirk and learned that a starship was nearby. And his transwarp beaming formula very nearly got Scotty killed.

Nero's plan would have worked if it weren't for some very unlikely coincidences and a lot of luck.

 

[Amaris]

Just to put this in perspective: Khan, the genetically-engineered superman genius somehow didn't realize that space is three dimensional. His people could fly a starship 300 years ahead of them, but he didn't realize that there's an up and down as well as a left and right.

Spock Prime would not have gotten help or anything had he not bumped into Kirk and learned that a starship was nearby. And his transwarp beaming formula very nearly got Scotty killed.

Nero's plan would have worked if it weren't for some very unlikely coincidences and a lot of luck.

Or as I like to call it: Every single movie and TV series ever made.

 

[Psion]

Heck, as much as I love to harp on the film's faults, I don't count an understanding of black holes and temporal vortices against Nero. He's a mad man, not a moron, and there wasn't enough time devoted to his backstory to establish he wasn't able to run what might be simple calculations by the late 24th century.

For once I'm forced to agree with Number6 et al.

He left one of if not THEE GREATEST MIND in Star Fleet from the 24 century at the front door of a Federation Outpost of a Planet he was about to attack....

....and you don't think that's moronic?
I would love to play a game of chess with just 2 rooks and 2 bishops and see how far you get with your whole army....

If you've only got 2 rooks and 2 bishops then I've already won since you need to keep your king.

 

[JarodRussell]

Just to put this in perspective: Khan, the genetically-engineered superman genius somehow didn't realize that space is three dimensional.

He just didn't make use of it. That's a difference.

And then again, Kirk didn't make use of it either. Spock had to tell him that before Kirk thought of "diving".

 

[Set Harth]

No reason was ever given that I'm aware of.

I already gave it, but it's also made clear in the film.

That's up to you to fully develop your case.

That's what tends to be called "proving a negative". In other words, I can't think of any way to prove "there is no error" aside from going step-by-step through the relevant material: no error here, next line - no error here, etc. Theoretically the burden of proof should be on the one alleging the existence of an error.

Where?

In the scene between Nero and captive Pike, IIRC.

 

[number6]

It's really not hard for people to connect the dots.. You don't need a line of dialog to explain every little thing.

You use that one line to exaggerate your way out of the specifics. I say Necessary information and you of course hear the words "Every little thing."

Story-telling isn't an exercise in some pre-school picture of dots. It's not supposed to be person telling a story of events and people. In these types of stories there must be a flow to the logic. If Nero having a greater education than his proffession required were the ONLY problem in this movie it wouldn't be worth picking at, at all.

Really?? You're going there? Hello!! 24th century.. Romulans with quantum singularity warp drive..

That's a stero-type not a argument. I understand the purpose of stereo-types but this one is out landish. You just said to the effect that all Romulans understand the nature and the working of a Drive system in their naval ships.

It's alright to believe what you want that you think makes the story work. However it only serves to suspend my belief.

Again, everyone who watched this film seems to get it.

Yes...of course...I forgot that logic works by consensus here on the TrekBBS...my-bad....

------------

Heck, as much as I love to harp on the film's faults, I don't count an understanding of black holes and temporal vortices against Nero. He's a mad man, not a moron, and there wasn't enough time devoted to his backstory to establish he wasn't able to run what might be simple calculations by the late 24th century.

For once I'm forced to agree with Number6 et al.

He left one of if not THEE GREATEST MIND in Star Fleet from the 24 century at the front door of a Federation Outpost of a Planet he was about to attack....

....and you don't think that's moronic?
I would love to play a game of chess with just 2 rooks and 2 bishops and see how far you get with your whole army....

What is moronic is how you keep harping on this argument like you're winning, when everyone on this board has proven your argument to be completely invalid. Are you going to move the goal posts some more or are you going to finally and at long last concede your failure?

 

[Psion]

Now you know you have a weak argument when the even the haters are inclined to agree with me in this!!

You know I'm not fond of listening to wailing babies while I'm eating out ... do you suppose that makes me capable of infanticide, too?

 

[number6]

Only in your mind!!

 

[William Wallace]

I know how a hurricane works and I don't have a degree in meteorology.. What's your problem with this?? I'm sure a mining ship captain in the 24th century knows the dangers and complexities of black holes. Why wouldn't he?? You haven't really explained why this is such a huge problem for you to understand. Everyone else seems to get it.

Uh, can you look at a radar map and predict exactly when and where the next hurricane is going to form? You see the problem there. That's about as big of leap from "miner" to "black hole specialist".

In the days before satelites, weather radar etc... When all they had to go by was what was on the horizon or could be felt either by the wind or the sea it seems likely that the crews of ships would have an idea of what the weather was going to do.

And I could buy that Nero might have some vague idea about what happened to Spock, but going from that to a perfect prediction is ludicrous.

I know how a hurricane works and I don't have a degree in meteorology.. What's your problem with this?? I'm sure a mining ship captain in the 24th century knows the dangers and complexities of black holes. Why wouldn't he?? You haven't really explained why this is such a huge problem for you to understand. Everyone else seems to get it.

Uh, can you look at a radar map and predict exactly when and where the next hurricane is going to form? You see the problem there. That's about as big of leap from "miner" to "black hole specialist".

I am an amateur meteorologist and astronomer it is a hobby. I can find access to computer models that assist in weather forecasting and also star maps. I also have a network of friends that are meteorologist and astronomers that I talk with.

Therefore in the Nero's time he could be an amateur astronomer just like today's amateur astronomer and meteorologists that have high tech equipment to play with and experts to talk with.

So it is entirely plausible that either Nero himself or someone else that he knows an can access that information and calculate Spock's arrival.

You could know everything there is to know about hurricanes, but there's still no way you can precisely predict where something will land if it gets sucked up into the storm. And given the extremely miniscule number of people and objects that have actually travelled into a black hole, it's reasonable to assume that they know much less about black-hole-based-time-travel than they do about hurricanes. Therefore, being able to predict Spock's exit point with such precision is highly implausible.

 

[number6]

Not for a 24th century space faring miner. It's hardly far fetched or implausible.

 

[Psion]

Only in your mind!!

Don't mess with me, man! You saw how fast I beat Saquist at chest!

Er ... chess.