Is it really that super unrealistic Kirks rank jump...
- Thread starter Yevetha
- Start date
Kirk wasn't beaten half to death - he didn't require medical treatment and was able to carry out a solo mission where he fought a load of Romulans and carried an injured man just a few hours later! If anything, he was in a worse state after the bar brawl.
I agree about the age thing. I can't imagine Pike or Picard being goaded like that. In fact the only character I can easily imagine being goaded like that is young NuKirk and not only that, we've seen just how short his fuse is when given orders he doesn't like and just how far he's prepared to go to prove himself right. If Spock's behaviour deprived him of promotion the same would have to be said of Kirk. Yet more evidence that the Humans are just racist!
BTW - I do agree that Spock would have turned down command in any event. That was why I said the presence of Number One as Pike's first officer would at least have given him a option for promotion as a reward.
I agree about the age thing. I can't imagine Pike or Picard being goaded like that. In fact the only character I can easily imagine being goaded like that is young NuKirk and not only that, we've seen just how short his fuse is when given orders he doesn't like and just how far he's prepared to go to prove himself right. If Spock's behaviour deprived him of promotion the same would have to be said of Kirk. Yet more evidence that the Humans are just racist!
BTW - I do agree that Spock would have turned down command in any event. That was why I said the presence of Number One as Pike's first officer would at least have given him a option for promotion as a reward.
This confuses me. You're saying that Spock doesn't deserve promotion because of this, yet Kirk was massively insubordinate and fighting with security right in front of the bridge crew.
Yet he deserved the stripes?
You could make the case that Spock was defending his command from an interloper. And you could easily make the case that Kirk's earlier actions could be seen as mutiny.
Because no one saw transwarp beaming getting invented in the next few hours?
They were a bit fuzzy on who was next in the chain of command after Kirk though. If Kirk was appointed by Pike outside the chain of command, who was the second officer below Spock? In TOS it was the chief engineer, followed by Sulu, followed by the assistant chief engineer, (followed possibly by Uhura) but here Sulu is a newly qualified cadet. It's fine to leave the duty officer in charge while you are off the bridge but not where all your duty officers are cadets and not while you are absent from the whole ship. They're very slapdash in their approach to the chain of command during a major crisis.
There's nothing saying that Sulu was a cadet fresh from the academy. He could have been out of the academy for a year even. When Spock and Kirk attack Nero's ship, Sulu's placed in command.
Well Sulu was slightly older than Uhura and was originally a physicist. It is possible that he was new to helm but had been out of the Acadamy for a few years I suppose. However, based on what we've seen over the years, it would be unusual for a science officer and a junior science officer at that to have practical experience as a duty officer. Plus they also place Chekov, who pretty much is newly qualified, in command of the bridge at one stage (and even then he leaves the bridge shortly after and places someone else (even more junior than him?!!!) in command).
I think we all know that it stems from them wanting to give the established characters something to do in spite of making them being newly qualified so we have to forgive them. But still, I don't think Sulu, as a last minute transfer to helm, is likely to be the second or even third officer.
The fact that Pike had no idea who Sulu was would seem to point to him not being part of the original chain of command.
That isn't really something new to Trek, however. Geordi was placed in command of the ship by Picard over more experienced and higher ranking officers in Arsenal of Freedom, and it even became a significant plot point in the episode. However, instead of deferring overall leadership to one of superior rank, he stood his ground and lead the crew to victory. Comparatively speaking, he held an even lower rank as an ensign than Lt. Sulu, and is perhaps closer to NuChekov in that regard.
That is true, although he was a Lt(jg) with several months' experience at the helm and Picard was pretty aware of what he could do by that point. It's possible that Picard was intentionally fast-tracking Geordi for promotion.
Or it could be that Picard wasn't expecting the trap and expected to be back on his ship in about 5 minutes, which seemed to be the case with Chekov. But I do agree that Picard was aiming for the kid for promotion, and that that mission went a long way towards turning Geordi into Chief Engineer.
Perhaps NuSulu was also Lt(jg), but that doesn't remove the precedent set by Geordi. But when Chekov was in command and appointed someone else in charge, that doesn't necessarily mean the person was even more junior than him; in the aforementioned episode, Geordi had the option of deferring command to the Chief Engineer, who was clearly of a higher rank. Geordi also made it clear that he was only going to defer to the orders Riker or Picard, bypassing the likes of Worf, Yar, Data, and if you count the funky ranks established in later episodes, Troi and Crusher, even though they come between him and Riker in rank and the chain. Granted, he may have been a bit hyperbolic regarding the chain considering the tensions of his first command and the engineer's antagonism, but it also showed that he was within his right to lead a certain way.
I could quote this post a hundred times and I'd only be beginning to show how much I agree with it.
In a film full of "WTF" moments and really annoying lapses in logic, storytelling, physics, and believability, that promotion was the straw that broke the Antarean Mountain Camel's back.
I will watch the next film, as everyone is in place, as it were the FIRST of the reboot. For me, the last film does not -- and cannot -- exist.
This is blatant BS, and if anything, supports the lowest common denominator for storytelling. Fiction, more so than *anything*, needs to be realistic (if it's not a comedy) lest it just become an exercise in wankery. Even fantasy, horror, and SF films have to have an internal logic and "reality" or they descend into comedy or even parody.
Bingo. This.
Oh, and, yeah, I hated the lens flares. They were, in addition to being distracting, quite literally putting "flash" ahead of substance.
"Internal logic" and "realism" are not the same. They aren't even kissing cousins.
You're groping for the word "plausible."
Sadly for that argument, plausibility is in the eye of the beholder. Two people might find ready agreement as to whether a vehicle represented as a "Sherman tank" in a film is an accurate recreation; such things existed. There is no such foundation for agreement on whether the interiors of a spacecraft alleged to exist hundreds of years in the future and having the capability of doing the impossible "looks real." Two people can disagree entirely and neither is more right.
Similarly, arguments over the rules and regulations of a make-believe Space Navy are not resolvable by appeal to real-world authority. I mean, going in to the discussion you've bought the premise of a Space Navy for Christ's sake.
There was as much "substance" in JJTrek as in any other Trek movie.
You're groping for the word "plausible."
Sadly for that argument, plausibility is in the eye of the beholder. Two people might find ready agreement as to whether a vehicle represented as a "Sherman tank" in a film is an accurate recreation; such things existed. There is no such foundation for agreement on whether the interiors of a spacecraft alleged to exist hundreds of years in the future and having the capability of doing the impossible "looks real." Two people can disagree entirely and neither is more right.
Similarly, arguments over the rules and regulations of a make-believe Space Navy are not resolvable by appeal to real-world authority. I mean, going in to the discussion you've bought the premise of a Space Navy for Christ's sake.
There was as much "substance" in JJTrek as in any other Trek movie.
Ironically, usually the same people who like to repeat the Copy & Paste comment that they saw elsewhere about the film supposedly being for "dumbed down masses" are the same people who needs things handfed to them regarding points to this film. It's an outdated and tired term now to describe the audience (which includes the members of this forum) and holds little merit anymore, especially when a lot of the points used to back up this term were actually done elsewhere in previous Trek, and to an even bigger level sometimes.
I'm sorry to be so late to this particular topic. Let me begin by stating that I actually enjoyed the film. I had lost my enthusiasm for Trek following the dismal effort of Nemesis. I sold or gave away all of my Trek memorabilia with the thought that I had, perhaps, finally outgrown it. (I'm old enough to have watched TOS on prime time...sigh) But I let myself get drug by the embers of an old obsession to the new film. And I had a wonderful time for the most part. I really enjoyed seeing some beloved roles taken on by new actors. I thought that a couple of the casting decisions were actually downright brilliant: Quinto, Urban and Greenwood specifically. I disagreed with a couple; Saldana and Pegg. And I was pleasantly surprised by Yelchin.
I did not like the new Enterprise, not because I am unable to look beyond what has gone before, but because I found her aesthetically displeasing - bloated and unbalanced to the eye. I didn't buy for a moment her being built in Iowa. Once they revealed her "true" size, my response was along the lines of Kirk's reply to Chang, "Right." And I hate the brewery engine room with a deep and abiding passion!
I thought that the film was poorly written and badly filmed. I am in the "don't like the lens flare" group. But it was fast paced, exciting and had an excellent soundtrack. I wish they hadn't played Scotty quite so much for comic relief, but it was what I expected once I heard that Pegg had been cast for the role.
Contrary to my expectations I actually really liked Pine as Kirk.
But the thing that shattered my willing suspension of disbelief, that slammed me forcibly back into the 21st century and left me walking out of the theater shaking my head and sighing was the promotion.
Oh, Good Lord! Let's get real for a minute here, people! Doesn't anyone understand the way rank structure works in an hierarchical institution? Does no one know the purpose behind a unified chain of command? Aargghh!!
I mean, okay, the fellow saved the planet. Fine. Give him a two grade promotion, a chestful of medals and some kind of monetary reward that makes him wealthy beyond the dreams of avarice; sort of a 23rd century form of prize and or head money. Great. He's suitably rewarded and everyone has a hero. But do not place an unseasoned kid with no practical command experience whatsoever in charge of the single most destructive vessel known to man. Please. If you do, where can I get off?
I am, first and foremost, a nautical historian. It is my life's passion. Second I am a sailor. Third, a military historian. And that preposterous promotion managed to insult me on all three counts!
Didn't keep me from buying the film on DVD (twice!) and won't keep me from going to see the sequel, but it did leave me with a bad taste in my mind and the vague feeling that someone had deliberately slighted my intelligence.
I did not like the new Enterprise, not because I am unable to look beyond what has gone before, but because I found her aesthetically displeasing - bloated and unbalanced to the eye. I didn't buy for a moment her being built in Iowa. Once they revealed her "true" size, my response was along the lines of Kirk's reply to Chang, "Right." And I hate the brewery engine room with a deep and abiding passion!
I thought that the film was poorly written and badly filmed. I am in the "don't like the lens flare" group. But it was fast paced, exciting and had an excellent soundtrack. I wish they hadn't played Scotty quite so much for comic relief, but it was what I expected once I heard that Pegg had been cast for the role.
Contrary to my expectations I actually really liked Pine as Kirk.
But the thing that shattered my willing suspension of disbelief, that slammed me forcibly back into the 21st century and left me walking out of the theater shaking my head and sighing was the promotion.
Oh, Good Lord! Let's get real for a minute here, people! Doesn't anyone understand the way rank structure works in an hierarchical institution? Does no one know the purpose behind a unified chain of command? Aargghh!!
I mean, okay, the fellow saved the planet. Fine. Give him a two grade promotion, a chestful of medals and some kind of monetary reward that makes him wealthy beyond the dreams of avarice; sort of a 23rd century form of prize and or head money. Great. He's suitably rewarded and everyone has a hero. But do not place an unseasoned kid with no practical command experience whatsoever in charge of the single most destructive vessel known to man. Please. If you do, where can I get off?
I am, first and foremost, a nautical historian. It is my life's passion. Second I am a sailor. Third, a military historian. And that preposterous promotion managed to insult me on all three counts!
Didn't keep me from buying the film on DVD (twice!) and won't keep me from going to see the sequel, but it did leave me with a bad taste in my mind and the vague feeling that someone had deliberately slighted my intelligence.
