Post-Romulan Galaxy

[Idran]

Saavik being half Romulan and Soleta are non-canon and not relevent for that reason.

Spock and Simon Tarses are both canon, though. Transitive property?

Edit: Oh, wait, we can do better than that. The fact that Simon Tarses wasn't uncovered as 1/4-Romulan until the inquiry certainly suggests if not outright implies that Romulans and Vulcans are genetically indistinguishable. As does the situation with Ambassador T'Pel. With the relations the Federation had with the Romulans, the idea that, if DNA could tell them apart, they wouldn't do a DNA scan on any Vulcan officials just in case, is kind of silly. Especially in the case of a high-ranking official like T'Pel. Since they weren't distinguished until it came out from blatant statements, therefore one can conclude there is no easy way to distinguish them. And if Vulcans and Romulans are similar enough that a DNA scan can't tell them apart, then they must be able to interbreed.

And even if you find some reason to reject that, there's still the thing I said earlier about Spock and Tarses.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Or NuSpock knew what he was talking about and for some reason Vulcans and Romulans are no longer naturally genetically compatible. Perhaps soemthing to do with radiation damage from the old ships the Romulans left Vulcan in. Or some sort of genetic alteration due to a virus on Romulus. It's not like the Vulcans would kidnap Romulan women to use their genetic matrial and wombs to repopulate the Vulcan race.

Even if the original Romulan stock became as far removed from the original Vulcan population as Neanderthals and Denisova seem to have been, they would still have been interfertile with Vulcans. I've my doubts as to whether that could happen in two thousand years' time, since the divergence of Neanderthals and Denisova required tens of thousands of years of absolute separation from the original proto-human populations in environments wildly different from those of the East African plains.

Yes, Star Trek isn't pure hard SF. Star Trek is still based broadly speaking in science, however, and the writers generally took considerable efforts to make sure that things at least sounded plausible. Enterprise even had a first-season episode featuring a planet with two kindred hominid species.

The simplest solution is simply to take the movie at it's word and actually have the Vulcans reduced to around 10,000 survivors. Let's not forget that the Vulcan masters seemed to be quite old. Depending on the male/female ratio of the survivors the situation may be just as dire as Spock says. Nothing says that it was 5,000 of each gender, all of breeding age.

That's not simple. It requires ignoring the substantial explicit statement in the novels and even TV that there are plenty of Vulcanoid populations out there in the galaxy, some of which existed independently of modern Vulcan civilization, many of which are offshoots of Vulcan in historical time.

The easiest explanation I can think of would have Spock, dislocated by the rather extreme events around Vulcan, make the mistake of using the term "Vulcan" for "Vulcanoid." Vulcan culture after Nero is clearly threatened, I agree, but the species which evolved on Vulcan (?) is not.

Saavik being half Romulan and Soleta are non-canon and not relevent for that reason.

Spock and Simon Tarses are both canon, though. Transitive property?

Edit: Oh, wait, we can do better than that. The fact that Simon Tarses wasn't uncovered as 1/4-Romulan until the inquiry certainly suggests if not outright implies that Romulans and Vulcans are genetically indistinguishable. As does the situation with Ambassador T'Pel. With the relations the Federation had with the Romulans, the idea that, if DNA could tell them apart, they wouldn't do a DNA scan on any Vulcan officials just in case, is kind of silly. Especially in the case of a high-ranking official like T'Pel. Since they weren't distinguished until it came out from blatant statements, therefore one can conclude there is no easy way to distinguish them. And if Vulcans and Romulans are similar enough that a DNA scan can't tell them apart, then they must be able to interbreed.

The gene pool of the Romulan population almost certainly does not reflect the gene pool of the Vulcan population. Never mind the original colonists not representing a fully representative cross-sample of the source population, the random events following the generation ships' departure--accidental deaths and failures to reproduce and unusual reproductive success--would have made things rather different, to say nothing of the cloning and genetic engineering under the Ruling Queen after settlement. There may be specific traits more common in the Romulan population than in other Vulcanoid populations, and the Federation probably has some idea what these traits are (Catalyst of Sorrows has the Federation possess genetic samples from Romulan prisoners, frex), but unless a trait is truly unique to the Romulans testing is only indicative.

 

[NSTrekfan]

From The Enterprise Incident

"There's only one Vulcan aboard that ship.
He should be easy enough to locate.

Romulans and Vulcans read almost exactly alike.
There is just a slight difference which --
Got him, sir."

"Almost exactly alike" isn't the same as "exactly alike". There are differences otherwise Spock would still be on the Romulan ship. And in genetics, almost compatible isn't the same as compatible. Human and chimpanzee DNA is almost the same but that doesn't mean you can create a human/chimp hybrid.

Regarding Simon Tarses and Spock, they are human crossed with Vulcan and Roumlan respectivly, not Vulcan crossed with Romulan. Still not proof of Vulcans and Romulans being cross fertile.

There wasn't a lot left on the transporter pad when T'Pel was beamed off but that doesn't matter since whatever it was, it wasn't her.

Arne Darvin was an assistant to the Federation Undersecretary for Agriculture and yet he was a Klingon, a fact McCoy confiremed with a tricorder and about 5 seconds of time. It would seem that the Federation isn't in the habit of scanning their civilian representitives so it's not surprising that T'Pel slipped through as well.

 

[Sci]

"Almost exactly alike" isn't the same as "exactly alike". There are differences otherwise Spock would still be on the Romulan ship.

There are genetic differences between someone with Type A and Type O blood, but that doesn't mean they're a separate species.

 

[NSTrekfan]

Give me one canon example of a Vulcan/Romulan hybrid.

There's Vulcan/Human, Romulan/Human, Klingon/Human. Where's the Vulcan/Romulans?

 

[Sci]

Give me one canon example of a Vulcan/Romulan hybrid.

This is a Trek Lit board; there's no reason to restrict ourselves to the canon.

 

[NSTrekfan]

But it's about how a canon film will impact the books. In that case it is correct to restrict ourselves to canon. Just because something has been established in the books doesn't mean that a later episode or film cannot override it. If the film says that the Vulcans are facing extinction then the books can't say that there's hundreds of colonies with millions of Vulcans left.

 

[Sci]

But it's about how a canon film will impact the books. In that case it is correct to restrict ourselves to canon.

... no, it's not. There's no reason to restrict ourselves to canon just because we're speculating about how canon will impact the books.

Just because something has been established in the books doesn't mean that a later episode or film cannot override it.

But no such overriding has occurred, and it is therefore silly to presume that one will.

If the film says that the Vulcans are facing extinction then the books can't say that there's hundreds of colonies with millions of Vulcans left.

The canon says that there are more than 10,000 Vulcans left, simply because we know from prior canon that there are Vulcan colonies outside of the home system and simply because Romulans and Vulcans are by definition the same species.

 

[NSTrekfan]

We only have heard of three Vulcan colonies, two of which were established to spy on the Andorians and the other being the Vulcanis Lunar Colony. Nowhere do we hear that in 2258 there were substancial numbers of Vulcans living off planet. The 10,000 can easily include any Vulcans living on these colonies, other planets or on ships. The Enterprise may have only rescued a dozen from the planet leaving all the rest off planet.

We still have absolutly no proof that Vulcans and Romulans can interbreed. None. Zip. Zilch. Zero. Doesn't mean that they can't just that it's not wrong to suppose that they can't either.

Biology has never been one of Star Trek's strong points, why start now?

 

[rfmcdpei]

From The Enterprise Incident

"There's only one Vulcan aboard that ship.
He should be easy enough to locate.

Romulans and Vulcans read almost exactly alike.
There is just a slight difference which --
Got him, sir."

"Almost exactly alike" isn't the same as "exactly alike". There are differences otherwise Spock would still be on the Romulan ship. And in genetics, almost compatible isn't the same as compatible. Human and chimpanzee DNA is almost the same but that doesn't mean you can create a human/chimp hybrid.

Granted that there are differences between the Romulan and Vulcan populations on the whole--I've granted that already--I have to wonder how the difference between Romulans and Vulcans could be significant to the point that they belong to different genuses.

Neanderthals and human developed many significant differences, brain capacity in the former species being 1600 cubic centimetres versus early homo sapiens sapiens' 1300 cubic centimetres, this difference having evolved after tens of thousands of years of isolation in separate environments, but it turns out that the two populations were still pretty darn interfertile when they were brought together. How could Vulcans and Romulans--never mind Vulcans and the other Vulcanoid civilizations out there--have plausibly diverged so much in such a short period of time?

Regarding Simon Tarses and Spock, they are human crossed with Vulcan and Roumlan respectivly, not Vulcan crossed with Romulan. Still not proof of Vulcans and Romulans being cross fertile.

Not directly, no. It is proof that there's enough overlap between the Vulcan and the Romulan gene pools for an individual with ancestry in the second demographic to claim ancestry in the first. If there's that much overlap, then assuming interfertility isn't possible would beg the question of why individuals from two populations with such significant genetc similarities can't reproduce.

There wasn't a lot left on the transporter pad when T'Pel was beamed off but that doesn't matter since whatever it was, it wasn't her.

The genetic material that the Romulans transferred to the Enterprise-D was replicated, but it was otherwise identical to her own DNA--it had to be, else someone less competent than Data and Crusher could have picked it up.

Arne Darvin was an assistant to the Federation Undersecretary for Agriculture and yet he was a Klingon, a fact McCoy confiremed with a tricorder and about 5 seconds of time. It would seem that the Federation isn't in the habit of scanning their civilian representitives so it's not surprising that T'Pel slipped through as well.

But when the replicated DNA was analysed in detail by Data and Crusher, they determined that the DNA was replicated. They did not determine that the owner of the original DNA was Romulan--they found that out only when the former T'Pel appeared on ther viewscreen dressed in the garb of a Romulan subcommander.

NuSpock's line stating that only ten thousand Vulcans remain could, if the writers of the new movies decide, be a definitive statement, with the Romulans and other Vulcanoids being slotted off into different species somehow and there being no significant offworld Vulcan populations at all. They've the right to determine the canon.

That intepretation isn't necessary, however. The line lends itself to multiple interpretations, the most restrictive of which has been excluded by the writers of that line, and by explicit and implicit statements within the TV series about the relationship between Vulcans and kindred populations never mind the novels and other ancillary materials. Again, if the NuTrek writers--or other writers charged with writing canon, if there are ever future TV series, say--explicitly state that Vulcans and Romulans are separate species incapable of reproducing with each other without radical technological interventions, then those statements would be compromised. Given what's been established already, that would seem unlikely.

 

[NSTrekfan]

Of course they can change the meaning if the so choose. They can also bring back Vulcan if they want to. By definintion, whatever they say is canon. However, until that time what the movie presented stands as canon. A chat transcript from one of the writers saying "Oh yeah, we forgot about them" does not change what appeared on the screen.

I'm not saying that what happened in the movie makes perfect sense. What I am saying is that the universe exists as it was presented in the movie, real world logic aside.

As far as the replicated DNA goes, perhaps they replicated the part of the DNA that's shared between Vulcans & Romulans and managed to leave out the part that Romulans alone posess. They're sneaky that way.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Of course they can change the meaning if the so choose. They can also bring back Vulcan if they want to. By definintion, whatever they say is canon. However, until that time what the movie presented stands as canon. A chat transcript from one of the writers saying "Oh yeah, we forgot about them" does not change what appeared on the screen.

But what happened on the screen is ambiguous. What it changes is open to legitimate debate, and, in all honesty, some possibilities are more lkely than other.

As far as the replicated DNA goes, perhaps they replicated the part of the DNA that's shared between Vulcans & Romulans and managed to leave out the part that Romulans alone posess. They're sneaky that way.

How does that explain Simon Tarses? And, again, if you're assuming that the Romulans speciated from the Vulcans--never mind all the other Vulcanoid species--in a short period of time, what mechanism allowed this to happen?

Occam's razor: the Romulans came from Vulcan only a short time ago in the evolutionary sense, they settled on a world not unlike Vulcan, thus they are still Vulcan.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Saying Vulcans survive in Romulans is like saying the British would survive in Nazi Germans. It doesn't work like that. Vulcans are the endangered species, not Vulcanoids. Had Germany perfected their V2 rocket, Humans would survive, but (for the purposes of this clumsy analogy) the British wouldn't.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Saying Vulcans survive in Romulans is like saying the British would survive in Nazi Germans. It doesn't work like that. Vulcans are the endangered species, not Vulcanoids. Had Germany perfected their V2 rocket, Humans would survive, but (for the purposes of this clumsy analogy) the British wouldn't.

But Vulcans aren't a distinct species from the Romulan, no more than the British are a distinct species from the German. "Vulcan" isn't a biological definition but, rather, a cultural definition.

 

[NSTrekfan]

Vulcan is a biological designation for the race that is native to the planet Vulcan. Romulan is (was) a cultural designation. Vulcan can also be used culturally but in this context Vulcan is biological.

For whatever reason, NuSpock does not consider Romulans when discussing the extinction of the Vulcan species. And he mentions endangerd species and extinction two distinct times. Perhaps Romulus has been destroyed in the NuUniverse as well. Any mention of Romulans may refer simply to a few thoudsand survivors that Spock could ahve included in his 10,000 already.

For whatever reason Romulans can be bred with Klingons but, as far as we know, not Vulcans. We have never seen a Vulcan/Romulan on screen nor has one been mentioned except in non-canon situations.

 

[Idran]

Vulcan is a biological designation for the race that is native to the planet Vulcan. Romulan is (was) a cultural designation. Vulcan can also be used culturally but in this context Vulcan is biological.

If Vulcan is a biological designation, and Romulan is a cultural designation, then what is the biological designation for the people culturally designated Romulan?

Also, since you're sticking to pure canon without interpretation, where in canon was this said explicitly as opposed to being inferred from canon?

For whatever reason Romulans can be bred with Klingons but, as far as we know, not Vulcans. We have never seen a Vulcan/Romulan on screen nor has one been mentioned except in non-canon situations.

But we do know that a Human/Romulan is indistinguishable from a Human/Vulcan.

 

[NSTrekfan]

We know that 1/4 Romulan/ 3/4 Human is indistinguisable from Human/Vulcan, at least according to standard Starfleet medical screening. Perhaps the explnation that he was 1/4 Vulcan was enough to satisfy most doctors but a more extensive genetic scan would turn up the truth, especially if the doctor were looking for proof of Romulan genetic material.

 

[rfmcdpei]

For whatever reason, NuSpock does not consider Romulans when discussing the extinction of the Vulcan species. And he mentions endangerd species and extinction two distinct times. Perhaps Romulus has been destroyed in the NuUniverse as well. Any mention of Romulans may refer simply to a few thoudsand survivors that Spock could ahve included in his 10,000 already.

While strapped to the torture bed en route to Earth, a Captain Pike who doesn't understand Nero's origins in a parallel future where Romulus has been destroyed tells Nero angrily that all he has to do is take a look to see that Romulus is fine.

Vulcan is a biological designation for the race that is native to the planet Vulcan. Romulan is (was) a cultural designation. Vulcan can also be used culturally but in this context Vulcan is biological.

If Vulcan is a biological designation, and Romulan is a cultural designation, then what is the biological designation for the people culturally designated Romulan?

Vulcanoid? Vulcan? Romulan-Vulcan? Without access to Dr. Crusher's medical database, we've no idea what terminology exists.

Also, since you're sticking to pure canon without interpretation, where in canon was this said explicitly as opposed to being inferred from canon?

This hasn't been stated; it hasn't come up.

The mass of evidence advanced so far, however--the apparent indistinguishability of at least some Vulcans with Romulans, the similarities of DNA, the recency of the Vulcan-Romulan separation--does lend considerably more plausibility to the idea that the Romulan flight from Vulcan did not create a new species than otherwise.

We know that 1/4 Romulan/ 3/4 Human is indistinguisable from Human/Vulcan, at least according to standard Starfleet medical screening. Perhaps the explnation that he was 1/4 Vulcan was enough to satisfy most doctors but a more extensive genetic scan would turn up the truth, especially if the doctor were looking for proof of Romulan genetic material.

I agree with you that there are certain distinctive Romulan genetic markers, a product of the isolation of a non-representative sample of the general Romulan gene pool and the random reproductive success of different individuals in the founding populations. Those markers, distinctiveness of French Canadians and even of different subpopulations within French Canada.

These sorts of genetic markers, though, do not create separate species. (For instance, I, as an English Canadian, could reproduce and have children with a French Canadian.) It does not follow that the existence of distinctive genetic markers in the Romulan population indicatives that Romulans are a separate species, that they are not interfertile with Vulcans.

 

[NSTrekfan]

There are similarities between Vulcan and Romulan DNA, of that there is no doubt. However, as Chekov says in The Enterprise Incident" -

"Romulans and Vulcans read almost exactly alike.
There is just a slight difference which --"

The genetic difference between a man and an orangutan may be considered "slight" but that doesn't mean that they can interbreed. We have evidence for various combinations of humans, klingons, romuulans, vulcans, etc. However, we have no example of Vulcan/Romulan. That's not saying that they do not or did not exist. However, in light of NuSpocks statements and OldSpock not correcting him, I would say that it is unlekly. After all, OldSpock spend decades working towards Unification. You'd think he'd say something like "The future of our race may now rest with the Romulans. I must work even harder to being our races together." However, he heads off with 10,000 survivors to start up a new colony. I would say that the evidence shows that the 10,000 includes those Vulcans who were off planet at the time.

 

[Idran]

If Vulcan is a biological designation, and Romulan is a cultural designation, then what is the biological designation for the people culturally designated Romulan?

Vulcanoid? Vulcan? Romulan-Vulcan? Without access to Dr. Crusher's medical database, we've no idea what terminology exists.

No, my point was that NSTrek's claim that Romulan is a cultural designation but Vulcan is a biological one is unfounded by any direct statements from canon, and he's making just as much an interpretation by canon as he is saying we are in dismissing our arguments in favor of Vulcans and Romulans being the same species.

The genetic difference between a man and an orangutan may be considered "slight" but that doesn't mean that they can interbreed.

To be entirely fair, it's actually not known for certain if humans could hybridize with any other modern-day primates or not, because any experiments along those lines would be horrendously unethical.