Learning to love "Insurrection"

[Mark 2000]

I don't want to win. I just don't think you have anything particularly interesting to say on the topic. You may call this a friendly conversation but answering someone who spent several posts explaining why its not within federation law ethics to kidnap people and plop them somewhere less desirable with "And I still move the Ba'ku, they're nothing more than squatters." then you aren't having a discussion. You're just to use jingoism to be antagonistic. So I'm going to drop out. You win. Enjoy it.

 

[BillJ]

I don't want to win. I just don't think you have anything particularly interesting to say on the topic. You may call this a friendly conversation but answering someone who spent several posts explaining why its not within federation law ethics to kidnap people and plop them somewhere less desirable with "And I still move the Ba'ku, they're nothing more than squatters." then you aren't having a discussion. You're just to use jingoism to be antagonistic. So I'm going to drop out. You win. Enjoy it.

At the end of the day, it is just a fun discussion about a fictional universe. Sorry you seem to have hard feelings about it.

As far as the morality of moving the Ba'ku... we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[cwl]

I actually don't mind insurrection too much.

I think the biggest problem with insurrection is this.

It would have made a great episode of TNG, it just wasn't strong enough to stand as a full length movie.

good point^^^

 

[Tiberius]

Agreed.

 

[T'Girl]

The Baku have been living on the planet for three hundred years. The Federation didn't exist when the Baku first settled there.

it's still their land and Star Fleet had no right to take it.

if the Feds went in there and said "look we're annexing this planet ... and if you refuse we'll take it by force."

Over the course of the discusion on this movie, many of you have apparently misunderstood something basic.

Nobody ... wants ... to ... take ... the ... planet.

At no point during the movie do the Baku lay claim to the planet.
The Federation already believe it to be theirs.
The Sona apparently believe the planet to be the Federation's.

Harvesting the space particles will cook the surface of the planet, this is why the Federation wants to move the Baku, so they wouldn't be harmed . After "decades" the Federation likely would have had no problem with the Baku returning to that valley (on a Federation planet) to re-establish their settlement/colony - if that would have even been possible.

Again, nobody wanted to take the planet.

 

[Mark 2000]

At no point during the movie do the Baku lay claim to the planet.
The Federation already believe it to be theirs.
The Sona apparently believe the planet to be the Federation's.

Um, I don't understand this conclusion. According to Memory Alpha the Baku were living on that planet since 2066. There was no Federation to claim the planet at the time. Even if the Feds thought the planet was empty if they found people when they got there then they should have let things alone or tried to negotiate with them. I don't know how you can say removing people from a place they own and don't want to leave is not wanting to take the planet away.

 

[T'Girl]

^ Let's try a metaphor ... in my home state we get occasional forest fires, people in the path (wind blown path) will sometimes be required, by law, to evacuate. It not that the government want to "take their land," it's because if they stay, the resident might be harmed.

What I took away from the movie was that the Sona would have simply collected the particles and the Baku be damned. But the Sona approached the Federation first to get their permission to collect the particles, the planet (in the eyes of the Sona) was in Federation territory, and the Sona didn't particularly want problems with the Federation. When the Federation discovered that there were colonists on the planet, they would not allow the Sona to proceed, knowing that the people on the surface would be killed in the process.

Remember, no one want to take the Baku's land, the Federation wanted to protect the Baku from "the forest fire."

According the Admiral, the Federation council sign off on all of this, why the Baku weren't openly approached and simply moved I don't know, that how I personally would have done it.

Apparently, neither the Federation nor the Sona really cared if the Baku thought the planet was theirs, but again no one wanted the planet, to the Federation it was irreverent, they wanted the rings only, once the colonists were off, the planet was disposable.

Most probably, the Baku would have continued to benefit from the effects of the rings, even after they were relocated, just like hundreds of billions of others in the Federation would have benefited from the effects of the rings.

Assuming of course that the medical effects were real after collection, none of the Baku would have been "condemned to death," if the assembled Baku wish to continue to live in a isolated valley some where, the Federation was "a thousand worlds and moving out," there was likely a unoccupied valley somewhere.

The Admiral also said that the effects of the removal of the rings would effect the planet's surface for "decades," suggesting that the effects were not permanent. Were they so inclined, the Baku could have re-establish their settlement, in the same valley, if they wished. Because no one (again) wanted the planet. The particles would have still been available to them.

They just wouldn't have had exclusive access anymore.

 

[Mark 2000]

^ Let's try a metaphor ... in my home state we get occasional forest fires, people in the path (wind blown path) will sometimes be required, by law, to evacuate. It not that the government want to "take their land," it's because if they stay, the resident might be harmed.

I forest fire is a natural disaster. Not an intelligence out to get you. And The government is not in league with the forest fire. You're completely neglecting that the Fed were going to get the radiation too.

I said it already. The Sona could hang all of the Baku up by their toe nails. That's an internal matter. The Federation should not have been involved.

 

[T'Girl]

forest fire is a natural disaster. Not an intelligence out to get you.

Nope, there have been forest fires that were acts of arson.

Point is, the Baku were being moved to prevent them from being harmed, not they were being moved to get at the rings. the Federation and the Sona could have collected the rings without moving the Baku at all.

And in spite of the Sona's duplicity, in spite of the space battle and in spite of the original collector being destroyed, the health benefits of the rings for hundreds of billion of Federation citizens and any remaining Sona (offspring of the first generation) was still there.

Subsequent to the end of the movie, the Federation could have still moved the Baku. The Sona offspring simply could have built another collector, and the rings benefits distributed widely. The events at the end of the movie really changed nothing.

The Federation council still knew of the rings, and had previously decided to collect them.

Federation ... already awesome health care.

The Enterprise's crew felt better after their exposure to the rings, than they did before. It would seem that their health care wasn't all that awesome after all.

 

[sonak]

^ Let's try a metaphor ... in my home state we get occasional forest fires, people in the path (wind blown path) will sometimes be required, by law, to evacuate. It not that the government want to "take their land," it's because if they stay, the resident might be harmed.

I forest fire is a natural disaster. Not an intelligence out to get you. And The government is not in league with the forest fire. You're completely neglecting that the Fed were going to get the radiation too.

I said it already. The Sona could hang all of the Baku up by their toe nails. That's an internal matter. The Federation should not have been involved.

Wait, all this time we'd been arguing, I thought you'd said that it was wrong on its face for the Baku to be moved. You're saying that the only reason you object to the scheme was because of UFP involvement and that there's nothing wrong with the Son'a moving them?

So if Ru'afo had gone to Dougherty and been like "hey, there's this planet with this incredible medical resource that can be collected and bottled and distributed to citizens of the galaxy, we just need the Federation's permission to get the stuff because it's in your territory, and oh by the way, there's a small group of squatters we'll need to move, just give us the ok and get out of the way," you'd be OK with that?


What was with the ethical debate about property rights vs the greater good then?

 

[Mark 2000]

What was with the ethical debate about property rights vs the greater good then?

Oh, look! You missed the part where I said the Federation shouldn't take an active role. Convenient!

 

[sonak]

What was with the ethical debate about property rights vs the greater good then?

Oh, look! You missed the part where I said the Federation shouldn't take an active role. Convenient!

no, I'm not trying to play "gotcha," I really am asking if your only objection is UFP involvement.

if the Baku planet were actually in neutral territory, and the Federation was totally uninvolved, and the Son'a came along and removed the Baku from the planet for the resources, then you have no issue with it?

So what was with the "greater good" debate then?

 

[T'Girl]

the Son'a came along and removed the Baku from the planet for the resources

But, except for the Federations involvement, the Sona would have collected the rings without removing the Baku first. The Sona felt themselves the party wronged.




.

 

[sonak]

the Son'a came along and removed the Baku from the planet for the resources

But, except for the Federations involvement, the Sona would have collected the rings without removing the Baku first. The Sona felt themselves the party wronged.




.

well, they were wronged. But apart from that, I don't remember where it's said that the Son'a would've just killed the Baku if not for the UFP. In fact, Gallatin seems shocked by Ru'afo's wilingness to do that late in the movie, and even then, Ru'afo's only doing it because Picard screwed up the original plan.

I think the Son'a would've moved the Baku originally, but they probably wouldn't have bothered with the deception with the holoship and stuff.

 

[Mark 2000]

well, they were wronged.

At what point are you going to explain how a group of people who violently tried to overthrow their government and were exiled were wronged? Were the Romulans wronged too?

 

[BillJ]

well, they were wronged.

At what point are you going to explain how a group of people who violently tried to overthrow their government and were exiled were wronged? Were the Romulans wronged too?

The circumstances were wildly different though. The Romulans were leaving because of a planet-wide ideological shift, the Ba'ku shipped the S'ona off-world to die. Even though there was an entire, uninhabited planet and they could've allowed the S'ona settle elsewhere.

The circumstances of the situation damn the Ba'ku. We believe murder, in and of itself, is wrong. But there are many circumstances where murder is justifiable.

Yanking the Ba'ku off the planet seems wrong in a vacuum. But when you begin to piece together the elements surrounding the relocation, the elements that led to that point in time... the relocation seems totally justifiable. Think of the S'ona and the Ba'ku as having a messy divorce and now a third party is coming in to divide the assets.

 

[JarodRussell]

I think the novel states that the two battleships the Son'a have are the actual ships they used to travel from their war torn home planet to the Briar Patch. So in fact what the Ba'ku did was to say to their kids: if you want to have technology, leave us alone and move some place else. There, take our ships, and go.

They did not sentence them to death. That is a ridiculous argument. Everyone here is sentenced to death. You are going to die, BillJ. Your parents sentenced you to death when they conceived you.

 

[sonak]

I think the novel states that the two battleships the Son'a have are the actual ships they used to travel from their war torn home planet to the Briar Patch. So in fact what the Ba'ku did was to say to their kids: if you want to have technology, leave us alone and move some place else. There, take our ships, and go.

They did not sentence them to death. That is a ridiculous argument. Everyone here is sentenced to death. You are going to die, BillJ. Your parents sentenced you to death when they conceived you.

sigh. You've made this argument before. BillJ wasn't born on a planet with a fountain of youth.


The Son'a WOULD NOT have died had they remained on the Baku planet. Yet the Baku, instead of having them settle elsewhere on the planet, kicked them off the planet(how they did this is another plothole by this crappy script, since the Baku are pacifists).


So the Baku, who contribute nothing to the larger galaxy, get sympathy for being THREATENED with removal, yet the Son'a, who were going to share the fountain of youth resources with the galaxy, and who actually suffered the effects of being removed, get no sympathy?


Can you explain why, other than that the Son'a are ugly and the script says they are supposed to be the "bad guys?"

 

[CaptainStoner]

Can you explain why, other than that the Son'a are ugly and the script says they are supposed to be the "bad guys?"

Because they are led by Rualfo or whatever his name was, who ultimately didn't care if he had to kill them all to get his way. Doesn't the film show some reconciliation at the end with other So'na?
I don't remember the case ever being made for WHY the forced relocation was even necessary. Nor do we even know if the collector device would have worked!
It is idiotic that there is apparently no diplomatic envoys being made. Does the film reference previous attempts?
And again, why the hurried relocation when apparently Federation scientists haven't even studied this so-called Collector in depth?
I still think Picard is on the right side, because there was no need to move the Baku on that day, and the forced subterfuge plan was, after all, against Federation principles, for whatever can of worms that may be.

Even if the planet was uninhabited, would the Federation let some questionable third party come in and try and collect the unique, life-saving particles? Hell no.

This thread has really firmed up my boobs, btw.

 

[sonak]

Can you explain why, other than that the Son'a are ugly and the script says they are supposed to be the "bad guys?"

Because they are led by Rualfo or whatever his name was, who ultimately didn't care if he had to kill them all to get his way. Doesn't the film show some reconciliation at the end with other So'na?
I don't remember the case ever being made for WHY the forced relocation was even necessary. Nor do we even know if the collector device would have worked!
It is idiotic that there is apparently no diplomatic envoys being made. Does the film reference previous attempts?
And again, why the hurried relocation when apparently Federation scientists haven't even studied this so-called Collector in depth?
I still think Picard is on the right side, because there was no need to move the Baku on that day, and the forced subterfuge plan was, after all, against Federation principles, for whatever can of worms that may be.

Even if the planet was uninhabited, would the Federation let some questionable third party come in and try and collect the unique, life-saving particles? Hell no.

This thread has really firmed up my boobs, btw.

a lot of your questions are answered by the movie. The reason the relocation was being done in a hurry was because many of the older Son'a didn't have a lot of time left.(thanks to those "peace-loving" Baku who forced the Son'a off planet for some reason)

As to why the Baku had to be moved, the process of collecting the natural "youth and healing" particles would have made their planet uninhabitable, so they were moving the Baku for safety reasons.