You basically answered how silly your argument is. The Sona, who have the guns and the ships were "forced" off Baku where they immediaely enslaved several races. Oh they were so wronged!
Learning to love "Insurrection"
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You basically answered how silly your argument is. The Sona, who have the guns and the ships were "forced" off Baku where they immediaely enslaved several races. Oh they were so wronged!
"who actually suffered the effects of being removed"? You mean they suffered the effects of being normal? They aged naturally, just like everyone else in the galaxy. And they wanted to take what others had, with force, with deception. How does that make them in any way sympathetic? The Ba'ku would have allowed them to stay, but the Son'a didn't. want. to. live. there. That is made very clear in the movie. They wanted to have their cake and eat it, at the expense of the Ba'ku. They could have lived there forever, but a hundred years before the events of the movie they left the planet to live in the lap of luxury. And then they realized they were dying just like the rest, and THEN they wanted to destroy the entire planet, to destroy the home of their parents, only to save their own asses. And once there was a little peaceful resistance against getting beamed away, the Son'a started bombardment, risking everyone's lives. As soon as Data had found out about the holoship, they tried to destroy him. How much more acts of conspiracy, intrigue and violence do you need before you consider someone a bad guy?
"who were going to share the fountain of youth resources with the galaxy"
That's the "needs of the many crap" I don't agree with. The more powerful nation always destroys the natives in their greed for resources. That's bad. And then they would have sold that fountain of youth stuff in bottles for extremely high prices, addicting the entire galaxy to it. Now that's generous. It was mentioned the Son'a were allies with the Dominion, too. That's a very dangerous combination.
One point about Insurrection was that natives should not be relocated. The other point was that the fountain of youth should stay behind the seal. Compare to Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, if you like. Or Avatar. Pandora is green, Earth is dying. How dare he to stop them from mining the mineral that can save Earth's problems?
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A little of both. Honestly, just because you hate a thing doesn't mean you should wrongly miscategorize it.
I'm not miscategorizing anything. The line is "when we failed, you(the Baku) exiled us to die slowly."
The Baku exiled the Son'a off planet. That's right in the script. The Son'a didn't pack up and leave, they were exiled. It's not my fault it doesn't make logical sense, I didn't write it.
Didn't see where the Ba'ku rejected, or even disagreed with, the S'ona characterization of events.
We reach, brother.
I liked INS the moment I watched it, because it WAS like an episode. I don't like big, stupid, splodey things. Peace be with all who do. Just my nature.
Your logic just enslaved a minority. That's the trouble with utilitarianism. Knowing that one has no power over being born a minority; and that even if not now, one could be classed as a minority one day; leads us to one of the hallmarks of Western liberalism, unalienable rights. Of course Locke and the boys grounded the concept in theology which is sketchy to some (a creator being who wishes people to be free). Your boy, Hobbes, thought such rights nonsense and too ill-defined. He wanted rights legislated, that is created by governments, and revocable by them too.
But then (ina democracy) you're back to tyranny of the majority not only on matters like taxation rates and how tall my grass can be, but big stuff like who can vote or own land . . . Or people.
Thus why so many people do like the concept of some fundantal, inviolable rights not derived from a government. Like in Trek, the right not to be moved from land you're on.
Didn't you take your toys home already? When did Kirk disagree with Khan's characterization? All Kirk ever said was "I know what he blames me for". Do you really need them to have an argument to get the point the film makers are making? You love WWII references. Germany attacked France. France won, forced the Germans out, and then way over charged them on reperations leaving Germany completely bankrupt. Did Germany deserve the revenge of attacking France again in 39? Probably not. You see, we can sympathize with Germany for having be overly punished, but we can't abide their violent revenge.
well, that's a nice attack on a perverted, strawman form of utilitarianism, but of course utilitarianism doesn't lead to slavery, and utilitarianism does endorse individual rights-it just does so because individual rights tend to lead to better outcomes, and it does so pragmatically, not in an absolutist way that ends up with horrible outcomes, like in INS, where the property rights of 600 end up trumping the benefits that would be brought to billions.
there's no script evidence that they're lying, and the Baku as well as Picard seem to accept their version of events. Are you just assuming they're lying because it helps your argument and because you think they're the "bad guys?" That's pretty weak.
Yet that's exactly what the Federation did here. There was to be no "violent revenge" on the Ba'ku, they were to be quietly moved. Until Picard and company show up. Hell, it doesn't seem that the S'ona are bent on "violent revenge" until Picard and company show up. If they were, why involve the Federation in the first place? The Feds had no idea that anyone was there to begin with. The S'ona go so far as trying to extract the Ba'ku from the planet via iso-linear tags.
Up until the Enterprise involves itself, this is little more than a tale of eminent domain. The Ba'ku would've been compensated with another planet no different than a homeowner being compensated with cash.
Knowing every thing we know about the Ba'ku (it's all right there in the film), it amazes me people continue to see them as a wronged party.
LOL, the Son'a started BOMBARDING the village at the first sign of peaceful resitance, and it's the Ba'ku's fault?
No, the Sona would be the Germans here. I didn't read the rest of your post because it's clear that if you didn't get the analogy - or were purposefully warping it to your needs, then nothing you could write regarding it would be worth reading.
Right, but why the relocation? How much harder is it to bamboozle the whole village on a holo-ship, than to just sneak down there and soak up the particles for a few weeks? They're willing to go to through all that deception, but not lie about taking an unsanctioned vacation?
I realize this film is fucked, but for me, Picard's opposition is based on the idiocy of the forced relocation. The Sona never make a real case for it. And the Federation has no idea if their Collector device would even work. Why would they even think of letting them use it, potentially destroying the planet's effects, when all that was needed was diplomacy?
I don't remember the film explaining that being on the planet wouldn't help the older So'na.
Exactly. Move to the other side of the planet. How would the Baku even know. They didn't even know there were duck blinds being built to study them right on the border of the village.
again, it's explained in the movie, I think during the scene between Picard and Dougherty when they first have the argument-some of the Son'a just don't have the time for the particles to take effect.
Where are you getting the idea that the collector wasn't going to work? They had Starfleet personnel there, I'm sure they analyzed the collector and determined it would work.
The reason they didn't use diplomacy was because of the script's weakness. There's no way it would work out. Either the Baku would agree to be relocated for the greater good the resources would provide, and thus there's no story, OR, they refuse to be relocated, putting their Luddite village above the greater interests of the Federation, the Son'a, etc., and thus they lose audience sympathy as they're portrayed as rigid, inflexible, and ludicrously self-centered.
As SFdebris put it, at least a dying soldier who fought the Dominion can die peacefully knowing that even though the Federation didn't get the means to harness this medical miracle, they did it because they didn't want to cause any "inconvenience" to a race of 600 self-centered jerks.
"We believe that when you create a machine to do the work of a man you take something away from the man."
And giving yourself immortality doesn't take something away from the man either?
You know I really wish they had gone with the original idea of the film that leaving the planet would kill them, just to see if the needs of the many crowd were okay with the Federation helping to commit mass murder if it benefited their population.
