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Another Step Forward for Private Spaceflight

Yes, but Boeing has to actually build their spacecrafts first. The article initially makes it sound like they already have a fleet of capsules ready to go, and just need pilots :)
 
^^
Article says they plan to be test-flying them in 2015. Not that far off. Of course, the boeing 787 is currently about three years behind schedule, so...
 
This is Boeing we're talking about. The only reason they let anyone believe there is any possibility of their NOT building it is because they're trying to get NASA to cover some of the cost of development and testing. NASA has quietly refused to do so because 1) It's Boeing, they can afford to do it themselves and 2) With the current state of human spaceflight in general, they'd be insane not to.

Boeing has more than enough experience in building manned and unmanned spacecraft to put together a little Low Earth Orbit capsule just to fly to the space station. The technology to do that is fifty years old, and Boeing INVENTED half of it.
 
I don't question Boeing's experience and capabilities. I grew up about three miles from the 747 plat in Everett, and I root for Boeing as much as anyone else from this area. I question the current state of their corporate leadership.
 
This is Boeing we're talking about. The only reason they let anyone believe there is any possibility of their NOT building it is because they're trying to get NASA to cover some of the cost of development and testing. NASA has quietly refused to do so because 1) It's Boeing, they can afford to do it themselves and 2) With the current state of human spaceflight in general, they'd be insane not to.

But unfortunately, that's a reason why it may never get built.
 
^^
Article says they plan to be test-flying them in 2015. Not that far off. Of course, the boeing 787 is currently about three years behind schedule, so...

I don't see how they can be ready by 2015 unless they are using someone elses rocket. SpaceX Falcon 9, Long March 5 and Soyuz are the only man rated booster that I know of that will be available in 2015. I wonder if the Air Force has finally decide to man-rate the Delta IV or if Boeing is going to do this out of it's own pocket.
 
Boeing has said they will be using an updated Atlas-V for the CST-100. Provided it's ever built:)
 
Boeing has said they will be using an updated Atlas-V for the CST-100. Provided it's ever built:)

Oops, Yeah I noticed that in the article. It's a little weird since

1)Atlas is owned by Lockheed Martin

2)It hasn't flown yet.

Can you man rate a booster in 4 years.
 
Atlas V has been flying since 2002 with a 100% success rate...

man-rating studies were done in 2010..And NASA has provided the go-ahead to begin the man-rating process...

SpaceX is already YEARS ahead of Boeing and even further ahead of Orbital Sciences

Competition is a good thing.. brings costs down in the long run...
 
man-rating studies were done in 2010..And NASA has provided the go-ahead to begin the man-rating process...

The studies began right after the Challenger accident and it's been on again off again for years. I know the Air Force has been pushing hard to man rate one of the two operational boosters for years.

SpaceX is already YEARS ahead of Boeing and even further ahead of Orbital Sciences

SpaceX has had a handful of launches. Boeing has been managing the shuttle for decades and has the successful Delta IV boosters. They've also dabled in reusable vehicles like the Delta Clipper. SpaceX is overhyped and there is no guarantee that Falcon 9 will be man rated or that they can find financing for the Falcon Heavy. Plus they are in competition with the Long March 6, updated Soyuz and possibly a new booster from India.

SpaceX is like Tesla motor company (another brilliant failure from Elon Musk) all Hype, no Results.
 
^And yet SpaceX is still years ahead of Boeing when it comes to launching a manned capsule.

Boeing has been managing the shuttle for decades and has the successful Delta IV boosters.
And we can see how successful they were at bring prices down on those.
They've also dabled in reusable vehicles like the Delta Clipper.
Yep, all that dabbling sure has led to alot of useful vehicles.
SpaceX is overhyped and there is no guarantee that Falcon 9 will be man rated
The Falcon 9 was developed from the beginning to be manrated, so no real issue there. The real issue is that NASA has no documentation of exactly what it considers "manrating", so Atlas is in the same boat as Falcon 9.
or that they can find financing for the Falcon Heavy.
Actually, I get the impression they already have.
Plus they are in competition with the Long March 6, updated Soyuz and possibly a new booster from India.
So is Atlas, and it's more expensive than Falcon 9. Also, ITAR makes those boosters unattractive to alot of payloads.

SpaceX is like Tesla motor company (another brilliant failure from Elon Musk) all Hype, no Results.
And yet, SpaceX has turned a profit in it's last 3 years of operations, Developed, launched and recovered a spacecraft in less time than it has taken NASA to drawup plans for one.

What more results do you need? A track record of 100 launches? give it time.
 
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^And yet SpaceX is still years ahead of Boeing when it comes to launching a manned capsule.

You do know that North American Aviation built the Command and Service module to Apollo. Guess who owns NAA. Yep BOEING. SpaceX think they can put people in space. Boeing has many times over.

And we can see how successful they were at bring prices down on those.

Well they did have to develop all that technology from scratch rather than stealing sorry re-purposing technology already available. Also remember that SpaceX hasn't lowered the prices yet. In fact I find their pricing scheming suspicious (since it's lower than the Long March 5 which is subsidized by the Chinese government).

Yep, all that dabbling sure has led to alot of useful vehicles.

It would have if NASA properly funded their programs. Did you know that Lockheed Martin finally solved the last hurdle in producing composite fuel tanks. That's right we be flying the VentureStar right now instead of being conned by Elon Musk.

The Falcon 9 was developed from the beginning to be manrated, so no real issue there. The real issue is that NASA has no documentation of exactly what it considers "manrating", so Atlas is in the same boat as Falcon 9.

The Atlas has the advantage of being based on a family of launchers going back to 1965. It also has the backing of the US Air Force. Falcon 9 is basically a new design with 2 successful launches. I'm sure given enough time both will be man rated but Atlas will probably get their first.


Actually, I get the impression they already have.

They have plans for one demo launch in 2013 but no paying customers have signed up yet.
 
Virgin Galactic has signed a deal with NASA to carry equipment and experiments sub-orbital, too:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2011/08/10/technology-virgin-galactic-nasa.html

But what I don't get is if NASA is getting out of the putting men into space business for now - or, to be specific, retiring the successful technology it's used for 30 years in favor of new stuff - why do companies like Boeing and Virgin Galactic still need to spend years upon years testing with no apparent input from NASA? Why cannot someone with deep pockets simply purchase the blueprints for the shuttle and start building their own?

It was the same issue with the Saturn V. When NASA started looking at going back to the moon a decade ago, a big deal was made of the fact they needed to learn how to do it again because apparently no plans remain from the Saturn V. Or something. IMO it's one of the reasons we ultimately weren't able to go back, because someone realized it would take too long and be too expensive to, in every literal sense of the word, reinvent the wheel.

I'm not saying stagnate the technology - the shuttle is 30 years old; the Saturn V going on 50 and if we want to go beyond the Moon we need something new - but these technologies worked and anyway all I'm seeing is stuff to take us suborbital and, maybe, to the ISS. Branson isn't building a moon rocket. Virgin and Boeing would be able to rake in a ton of cash to develop new designs, etc. if they took all those people who paid their millions and instead of making them wait years, build a new shuttle and send them up. And none of this "suborbital" nonsense. People have been speculating about "orbital hotels" for years, forgetting that all they really need to do is build a NASA-style shuttle, install a dozen sleeping cabins in what would be the cargo area, send the shuttle into orbit for a week like it usually does, and there you go. Dangerous? Of course, but if you consider that in the history of the shuttle program there were only 2 major accidents and basically only the one, Apollo 13, in the case of the Saturn V (Apollo 1 doesn't count as that happened during a test on the ground). I don't know the stats, but that probably compares nicely with, say, Concorde or other air travel passenger vehicles.

I understand the rationale about not letting other countries get hold of the plans. No one at NASA, I bet, wants to see China claim the moon anytime soon, so let them figure out how to get there. But we're talking Boeing and Virgin here - these types of companies wrote the book on keeping proprietary information secret.

Ale
 
these types of companies wrote the book on keeping proprietary information secret.

[pedantic]"Secret" actually has a very specific meaning which goes beyond "proprietary."[/pedantic]

Anyway, the main reason for not just duplicating the shuttle is that it was over-engineered to begin with and the price never came down despite years of service. Part of the reason for this change-up is to take a step back and see if we can accomplish the same thing with less effort.
 
You do know that North American Aviation built the Command and Service module to Apollo. Guess who owns NAA. Yep BOEING. SpaceX think they can put people in space. Boeing has many times over.
Well then, let's go ahead and have them launch an Apollo. Oh wait, last one was produced over 30 years ago.
Well they did have to develop all that technology from scratch rather than stealing sorry re-purposing technology already available.
Yep, and Boeing re-invents the wheel and the calculator everytime it develops something. Please if you're going to make accusations of theft, make a citizen's arrest.
Also remember that SpaceX hasn't lowered the prices yet. In fact I find their pricing scheming suspicious (since it's lower than the Long March 5 which is subsidized by the Chinese government).
Oh Noes!!! the conspiracy argument!! If it was "scheme" do you think SpaceX would have raised prices as they have? No, but they did because they found that they're original prices were unrealistic. Are they still lower than most, if not all launchers? For now, yes.
It would have if NASA properly funded their programs. Did you know that Lockheed Martin finally solved the last hurdle in producing composite fuel tanks.
yep, agreed, that was a shame.
That's right we be flying the VentureStar right now instead of being conned by Elon Musk.
This sounds like a personal vendetta. Do you have proof of a con? What facts do you have that point to a con?
The Atlas has the advantage of being based on a family of launchers going back to 1965. It also has the backing of the US Air Force.
Quick note here. The Airforce is actually against changes to Atlas. They like that it works how it is and don't want changes compromising that.
Falcon 9 is basically a new design with 2 successful launches. I'm sure given enough time both will be man rated but Atlas will probably get their first.


They have plans for one demo launch in 2013 but no paying customers have signed up yet.
So, you agree then? They do have the money to develop and launch it?

It's funny you seem to think Elon Musk is some kind of mustachio-twirling villain. He's really just a business man trying to break into a market that has been pretty stagnant for years. If he personally succeeds we are all better for it. If he doesn't, we still benefit from the shaking up he has given the market.
 
Well then, let's go ahead and have them launch an Apollo. Oh wait, last one was produced over 30 years ago.

Well during that time NAA/Rockwell built something called Space Shuttle. Boeing did research on the National Aerospace Plane which was cancelled, the Delta Clipper, and they competed for the Orion project which Lockheed won.

Yep, and Boeing re-invents the wheel and the calculator everytime it develops something
Well that's because they want things to be better. Aren't you the one who wants innovation.

If it was "scheme" do you think SpaceX would have raised prices as they have?
SpaceX hasn't raised their prices. Elon Musk is still saying he can deliver a $500/lb to LEO.

Quick note here. The Airforce is actually against changes to Atlas.
Quick note you are wrong. The Air Force has been seriously considering an independent route to space since Challenger. That included manned missions. The problem has been funding and resistance from NASA bureaucracy.

So, you agree then? They do have the money to develop and launch it?
I said PLANNED not confirmed. In fact the only customer for Falcon Heavy is NASA (and possibly the US Military) and they haven't stated anything yet.

It's funny you seem to think Elon Musk is some kind of mustachio-twirling villain. He's really just a business man trying to break into a market that has been pretty stagnant for years. If he personally succeeds we are all better for it. If he doesn't, we still benefit from the shaking up he has given the market.
The fiasco at Tesla motors proves that Elon Musk is either a con man from Silicon Valley (famous for the hype and dump) or incompetent. Either doesn't fill me with much hope.

When SpaceX goes to the government for money because "increased development cost" than you know it's a con.
 
But what I don't get is if NASA is getting out of the putting men into space business for now - or, to be specific, retiring the successful technology it's used for 30 years in favor of new stuff - why do companies like Boeing and Virgin Galactic still need to spend years upon years testing with no apparent input from NASA? Why cannot someone with deep pockets simply purchase the blueprints for the shuttle and start building their own?

First the Space Shuttle was not successful. It was kept going because no President and no Congress had the guts to either order a replacement or cancel the program outright. Everybody complains about the SRB's but the real problems was the tiles. They were the best solution at the time but they barely worked and they were expensive to replace and maintain. The Soviets realized this and a host of other problems with their own Shuttle program and promptly abandoned it.

Second NASA give a great deal of input to Boeing and Scaled Composites doesn't need NASA expertise though I believe the Solid fuel rocket that Scaled composites uses was a former NASA project.
 
First the Space Shuttle was not successful.

The shuttle had two fatalities in over 25 years of flight. Sounds successful to me, despite the huge dangers astronauts faced even launching on the thing. Or are you talking strictly from a money perspective? There, that's true. But you can't honestly condemn over two decades use of the most sophisticated machine ever built over money.

The fiasco at Tesla motors proves that Elon Musk is either a con man from Silicon Valley (famous for the hype and dump) or incompetent. Either doesn't fill me with much hope.

I'm sure Elon Musk doesn't give two shits what some random person on a Star Trek internet bulletin board thinks of him. I have no doubt that Dragon WILL be the replacement for the shuttle, while Boeing and NASA keep bullshitting about money for the CST-100, and LM keeps getting a new name for the Orion...and neither craft ends up getting built.
 
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