Post-Romulan Galaxy

[rfmcdpei]

Getting this back on topic for a moment.... 2387 with Romulus gone and the Empire probably in shambles, and with Spock gone, and seemingly martyred for his cause, wouldn't this be a good time for the re-unification of Romulans and Vulcans to begin to rake place in earnest??

Some might think so, but I imagine it would meet with passionate resistance from the surviving Romulans. With their nation weakened, they'd be hostile to anything that seemed like an attempt to assimilate them back into Vulcan culture and eradicate their Romulan identity.

I'm not at all sure of that.

One thing that the novelverse has been consistent in doing, at least as early as Duane's Rihannsuverse novels, is establishing the Romulans as much more culturally diverse than an outsider might see. Duane established that the settlers of Romulus were divided into clans and even created small nations, these nations only being melded together by the Empire not destroyed. Romulan clans also functioned as independent blocs, each adopting different policies and in certain respects and environments (on distant colony worlds, say) acting as autonomous states within the Empire. Different worlds have different histories stemming from the period of their settlement: first-generation colony worlds, second-generation, conquered worlds, by a Ship Clan or by regular migrants or by ... ? The most recent Star Trek movie even establishes that there are three Romulan languages.

All these internal divisions have, in the filmed universe and in the novelverse, given rise to very substantial internal divisions, infighting, and even--depending on the status of The Empty Chair--explicit civil war. Charvanek did attack the Romulan flotilla destined for the attack on Narendra III, later using the attack to depose the sitting praetor. Romulans are divided.

We know that there's a reunification movement. We know that in the late 2360s it was not strong enough to pose a significant issue, if not an existential one, for the Romulan state, likely with different populations responding in different ways. If, as a result of a cataclysm, Romulus/Remus and perhaps other core worlds of the Romulan Star Empire were destroyed, I don't think that you would get a uniform reaction from the surviving Romulans. A "Time of Troubles" like that described in the Star Trek Online timeline seems plausible. If the surviving Romulans couldn't reunite, you might even see the Star Empire dissolve, some worlds and civilizations--including non-Romulan ones--opting for independence and others moving into a Federation orbit. Reunification just might work in that sort of desperate environment.

 

[Christopher]

If there were Romulan colonies wouldn't the supernova take out a bunch of them as well?

Depends on where it is, which is unestablished. There's no reason to assume that the entire Romulan population has been jeopardized. Within the context of the Trek Lit universe as we understand it, that seems unlikely.

Robert Orci can say whatever he likes but if it ain't on the screen, it doesn't count.

But it shows that the line as stated onscreen is ambiguous. And it's just plain ridiculous to assume that the Vulcans, a civilization that's been spacefaring for 900 years by the point of their homeworld's destruction, have nobody living on other planets. Sure, it can't be absolutely ruled out, but it's vastly less plausible than the alternative, so I can't imagine why it would be desirable to advocate it.

Besides, why would Spock belive himself to be a member of an endangerd species if of ther Vulcan colonies still exist?

Because, as we know, he was "emotionally compromised" at that point. He was highly distraught after seeing his whole planet and his mother die right in front of him. When people are in grief or depression, they tend to exaggerate the negatives.

And because this is a work of dramatic fiction, particularly a motion picture, a medium which calls for brevity and visceral intensity. In that context, emotional impact matters more than rationality. Going into detail about the survival of Vulcans elsewhere in the universe doesn't pack as much of an emotional punch as what we got. But once the movie's over and you think about it, that's when you see the logic holes, and luckily the line is ambiguous enough to let us fill them in. It would hardly be the first time that Trek Lit has taken a problematical or flawed element and interpreted it in a more feasible way.

Some might think so, but I imagine it would meet with passionate resistance from the surviving Romulans. With their nation weakened, they'd be hostile to anything that seemed like an attempt to assimilate them back into Vulcan culture and eradicate their Romulan identity.

I'm not at all sure of that.

One thing that the novelverse has been consistent in doing, at least as early as Duane's Rihannsuverse novels, is establishing the Romulans as much more culturally diverse than an outsider might see.
...
If, as a result of a cataclysm, Romulus/Remus and perhaps other core worlds of the Romulan Star Empire were destroyed, I don't think that you would get a uniform reaction from the surviving Romulans.

That's actually what I meant, I just didn't phrase it well. I meant that some Romulans might be drawn to unification, but other factions would react against it quite fiercely.

 

[Jedi_Master]

One issue I see with "Post Romulus" novels is that the majority of familiar characters will be too old or too scattered among the stars to be a significant part of the adventure.

 

[NSTrekfan]

However, when NuSpock meets up with Spock Prime at the end he's heading off to help repopulate the species.

"In the face of extinction it is only logical I resign my Starfleet commission and help rebuild our race."

He's had time to compose himself and he sounds like he's back to his old, logical self. Note he's still using the word extinction. He believes the Vulcan race needs rebuilding. If he is so emotionally compromised as he is denying the existance of Vulcan colonies, how is he still fit for duty? And yet he marches right onto the Enterprise and offers his services.

Orci might have second thoughts about how he wrote that scene but there's more evidence that the 10,000 number is correct than there is that it's wrong. It's clear that is what was intended at the time. The near extinction of the Vulcan race is mentioned twice at two distinct times.

 

[Idran]

One issue I see with "Post Romulus" novels is that the majority of familiar characters will be too old or too scattered among the stars to be a significant part of the adventure.

Post-Romulus is only about 5 years away in-setting.

 

[Christopher]

Orci might have second thoughts about how he wrote that scene but there's more evidence that the 10,000 number is correct than there is that it's wrong. It's clear that is what was intended at the time. The near extinction of the Vulcan race is mentioned twice at two distinct times.

Lots of things in Star Trek have been "mentioned" and later ignored because of the problems they raised. Like Janet Lester saying women couldn't command starships, or "The Alternative Factor" saying that any matter-antimatter reaction would destroy the entire universe, or "Fury" saying a ship couldn't change course without dropping out of warp.

This is not a documentary. This is something that a bunch of different people with different assumptions and goals are making up as they go. So as rfmcdpei says, it's not a good idea to take the details too literally. There's no way ST has any coherence as a universe if you take every bit of it literally. It's important to be flexible in how you interpret things.

Besides, it's pointless to argue about something that's entirely imaginary and has no objective reality. For all we know, in the next movie, the script could specifically mention that other Vulcan populations survive elsewhere (which, in response to your earlier question, is why Bob Orci's statement is relevant, given that he's one of the sequel's screenwriters). Or it could specifically mention that they don't. Star Trek is a fictional world, and its creators can easily reverse or contradict any past assertion made about it. Which is another reason why it's important not to get too fixated on the details.

 

[mindx2]

Which is another reason why it's important not to get too fixated on the details.

We are talking about Star Trek fans here !!

 

[Idran]

Besides, it's pointless to argue about something that's entirely imaginary and has no objective reality.

Having fun isn't a point?
I mean, it's just doing the same thing that literary criticism does. Yes, for any fictional setting, at some point some author (maybe the original, maybe not) could write a follow-up that changes things, but you can still argue about what happened in the original independent of that. Because it's fun!

 

[Christopher]

^That's just it. It doesn't sound to me like he's having fun, it sounds to me like he's taking this all far too seriously and is getting upset at the idea that the dialogue might not be absolute literal truth. My whole point is that we should just relax and recognize that this is a work of entertainment created for our recreation, not a set of historical texts we need to study in order to pass an exam or a revealed dogma that we must fanatically defend against heretical viewpoints. So we shouldn't get so hung up on the details, or so upset about inconsistencies, that we forget it's meant to be entertainment.

 

[JD]

Couldn't it just be that the populations of the colonies are so small that Vulcans are now "an endangered species"?

 

[JD]

Couldn't it just be that the populations of the colonies are so small that Vulcans are now "an endangered species"?

 

[rfmcdpei]

Couldn't it just be that the populations of the colonies are so small that Vulcans are now "an endangered species"?

One possibility just occurred to me. I recently bought the sourcebooks for the RPG setting Eclipse Phase, where in the mid-22nd century a singularity gone very bad has left Earth a ruin but hundreds of millions of people sustaining a very high-tech civilization elsewhere in the solar system.

The faction aspiring to dominance of civilization, the Planetary Consortium, is trying to ensure its dominance by accelerating the terraforming of Mars into a fully Earth-like world habitable without any radical modifications (and also wants to engage in similar rapid terraforming of Venus). The Consortium's goal is to make Mars a new homeworld for humanity in place of the ruined dangerous Earth, a place with the hospitable environment and the density of development to make it (not Jovian space, not Titan) the central focus for transhumanity.

There may be millions of Vulcans living offworld, but most of these may be living in places that can't obviously be made into a nexus for Vulcan civilization, mining outposts and science stations and space-based habitats. Vulcans might not even have seen the need: why bother going to the expense of establishing a second homeworld if the first is certainly going to remain intact?

The line "In the face of extinction it is only logical I resign my Starfleet commission and help rebuild our race." arguably fits this paradigm. Even with millions of Vulcans living off their homeworld, Vulcan civilization would have been decapitated. Trying to build up an alternative centre for Vulcan civilization--one that isn't, say, Romulus--would definitely consume the effort of Vulcan civilization.

 

[NSTrekfan]

^That's just it. It doesn't sound to me like he's having fun, it sounds to me like he's taking this all far too seriously and is getting upset at the idea that the dialogue might not be absolute literal truth. My whole point is that we should just relax and recognize that this is a work of entertainment created for our recreation, not a set of historical texts we need to study in order to pass an exam or a revealed dogma that we must fanatically defend against heretical viewpoints. So we shouldn't get so hung up on the details, or so upset about inconsistencies, that we forget it's meant to be entertainment.

Oh my. For someone who objected to B5's telepaths you don't seem to have any trouble beliveing you can read my mind.

I was simply looking at the possibility of the situation of the two universes being mirror images, no Vulcan and 10,000 survivors vs no Romulus and 10,000 Romulans. Appreantly that, in thw words of the alien captain in TSFS "is subject forbidden!"

Details are the seasoning of the stories, be they movie or book. You have multiple page listing of annotations on your website listing the most obscure details of your various works. IS everyone that "gets" one of your details unhappy? If I go to your website and read the annotations, does that make me dissatified? If I discuss the annotations here have you failed in your mission to write an entertaining book?

There are books that I've bought that I've enjoyed. There's been ones I haven't. There's even been one I've tossed in the trash in disgust. Please don't presume to tell me how I'm feeling about something and I won't do the same to you?

Just because I interperit parts of the movie more literally than you do, does that make it wrong? I don't expect every word to be carved into stone tablets but when a point is brought up more than once and is used as a plot point, doesn't that mean it should be taken a bit more seriously (in context of course. We are talking about sci-fi here, not Shakespeare)?

The idea that there's very few Vulcans left (the 10,000 number that we dare not speak of) directly leads NuSpock to plan to leave Starfleet. The leads Spock Prime to talk him into staying by appealing to his human half. Spock Prime also offers to take up NuSpocks burden of helping to rebuild the Vulcan civilization. If there were billions of Vulcans out there, like there seem to be humans, then it really wouldn't be that big of a deal. The fact that the movie itself made it the subject of the historic meeting of the two Spocks tells me that it's a big deal indeed. (Keeping in mind that it is just entertainment Christopher).

I'm just fine, thank you.

 

[Christopher]

^No, I can't read your mind. All I can read are your words. And your words come off as very confrontational and impatient. I've had people tell me my words seem that way sometimes when I have no such intention, so I try to keep any eye on that and pull myself back (though admittedly I don't always succeed). Maybe we could both stand to take a look at our posting style.

 

[NSTrekfan]

Agreed.

 

[rfmcdpei]

The idea that there's very few Vulcans left (the 10,000 number that we dare not speak of) directly leads NuSpock to plan to leave Starfleet. The leads Spock Prime to talk him into staying by appealing to his human half. Spock Prime also offers to take up NuSpocks burden of helping to rebuild the Vulcan civilization. If there were billions of Vulcans out there, like there seem to be humans, then it really wouldn't be that big of a deal. The fact that the movie itself made it the subject of the historic meeting of the two Spocks tells me that it's a big deal indeed.

I think that you've made good points about Vulcan proper, at least.

The Vulcanoid species has shown itself to be almost as impressively and aggressively expansionistic as the human speces, with the Romulans conquering for themselves a very broad swathe of known space. In the specific case of the Romulans, the sheer scale of the Romulan empire makes it unlikely that all the Romulans are concentrated on their homeworld with only a scattering outside the core. The Romulans are not likely to be a one-planet civilization like what the Risans or Ramatisians appear to have been: the Romulans are much too large a power for this. The novelverse goes and provides detail on the existence of multiple large Romulan colonies that the TV shows never did, on account of the relatively minor role played by Romulans in the series. And so long as the Romulan Star Empire's Romulan community remains even somewhat intact, the survival of the Romulan culture of the Vulcanoid species (the Vulcanoid species, full stop) would no more be threatened by the destruction of Romulus than the survival of the human species would be by the destruction of Earth.

If we're talking about the specifically Vulcan culture of the Vulcanoid species, things could well be different. We know very very little about the early history of the Romulan Star Empire's interstellar expansion, but whatever early external opponents there may have been were not able to save themselves from Romulan conquest. The Vulcans did not: the Axanarri at Epsilon Eridani, the Tellarites at 61 Cygni, the Kaferians at Tau Ceti, and Draylaxians at Epsilon Indi, the Andorians at Procyon, all remained independent of Vulcan as near or actual equals. Maybe the Vulcans couldn't, but in all likelihood the post-Surakian Vulcans were uninterested in conquering them and creating a Vulcan Star Empire. Perhaps the post-Surakian Vulcans weren't interested in any particular colonalization drive at all. What would be the point? Thus, when Nero came along there may have been subtantial off-Vulcan populations, but no world that could play the role of substitute homeworld.

Thoughts?

 

[NSTrekfan]

The Romulans may consider otherplanet to be unworthy of them. After all, Romulus is the one that was chosed all those centuries ago. There must have been other habitable planets that they encountered but didn't settle on for whatever reason. Romulan children may be taught from birth that they are the chosen people living on the chosen planet. Perhaps being assigned to another planet, as opposed to a ship, is seen as punishment. This would also plpay into the idea that the Romulans conquer a planet and rule it from orbit, not wanting to get themselves soiled. A habitable planet that's already inhabited may be seen as unclean. Perhaps there's not as many habitable planets that don't have a native sentient species living on it?

Would go a long way towards explaining the arrogance as well.

 

[Christopher]

Perhaps the post-Surakian Vulcans weren't interested in any particular colonalization drive at all. What would be the point? Thus, when Nero came along there may have been subtantial off-Vulcan populations, but no world that could play the role of substitute homeworld.

Thoughts?

We have contradictory information about pre-2155 (pre-Kir'Shara) Vulcan society from ENT. On the one hand, T'Pol said in season 1 that Vulcans found pure exploration illogical, yet on the other hand we know they were monitoring Earth as early as 1957. But that could be reconcilable if their interest was not so much pure knowledge as assessing us as a potential threat.

So let's accept T'Pol's statement: Vulcans of this era did not engage in exploration as an end in itself, but only as a means toward more pragmatic ends. Yet we know they had been an active spacefaring power for roughly three centuries by that point. So what were they doing if not exploring? They must've had some pragmatic reason to go into space on a continuing basis. Interaction and trade with neighboring species could be such a reason, but so could colonization.

I posit the following: it is completely illogical for a starfaring civilization not to colonize worlds beyond its own. Planets can be destroyed by wars, disasters, cosmic cataclysms, or in the context of an SF universe, alien invasions. Therefore, if a species wishes to perpetuate its existence, it has an imperative to grow beyond its home planet and either colonize other planets or build artificial habitats. In the long run, this is not optional if a species wishes to survive. There are too many things in real life that can cause a mass extinction on a planet (nuclear war, supernovae, gamma-ray bursts, asteroid impacts, runaway vulcanism, runaway greenhouse effect, methane clathrate breakdown, etc.) and in the Trek universe there are even more things that can do that or even destroy a planet altogether (alien invasions, polaric ion explosions, trilithium starkillers, Tox Uthats, Red Matter, etc.). Ultimately, a species must either colonize space or go extinct. It's a simple matter of not keeping all your eggs in one basket.

This is a principle that many Earthly thinkers, writers, and policymakers in real life have already recognized as true, but for us the threat of extinction is fairly abstract. The Vulcans, by contrast, have direct experience with the near-extinction of their civilization; they almost exterminated themselves before the Time of Awakening. Thus, it stands to reason that they would surely recognize and act upon the logical imperative of establishing a large enough offworld population base to ensure the species' survival should some disaster wipe out all intelligent life on Vulcan.

And of course this goes for the Romulans as well, and indeed for every intelligent, technological species in the universe. A species with the capability to travel beyond its planet would have to use it to spread its population beyond the limits of that planet. In the long term, it would be suicidal not to.

 

[NSTrekfan]

I'd agree with you if Vulcans were a) real and b) as logical as they're said to be. However, they're a fictional race who exist for the sake of drama. They're allowed to do stupid things if it serves the story. Having Vulcan or Romulus destroyed and taking out 99.999999% of the population makes a greater impact that losing the home planet and having multiple planets with large populations available. As they were both taken out in a summer blockbuster movie I'd say the idea was to give us the biggest bang for our buck.

 

[Christopher]

^And I still don't know why you'd want to argue in favor of that interpretation.