The A DANCE WITH DRAGONS Spoiler Thread

[PsychoPere]

Skagos would certainly make sense, based on Davos's reaction. It was one of my first thoughts, but I had initially discounted it after looking at Rickon's entry on the A Song of Ice and Fire Wiki and seeing that Osha had indicated she would head south, while Bran and company headed north beyond the Wall. My other thought was perhaps they went looking for Greywater Watch.

 

[Colonel Midnight]

And the award for the most fucked up and disgusting scene in the whole book series goes to Ramsay Bolton's wedding night. GRRM is an evil, sick and twisted man.
And I'm only at ~50% of the book.

Yikes! I haven't gotten there yet, and dreading it just from the other 'Reek' / Theon chapters.

Does GRRM have something against weddings? *sheeeesh*

Cheers,
-CM-

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Finished it!

Hmm, what to say? I have mixed feelings about it. Martin's characterization, world building and being back in the presence of a world and characters that now have such strong familiarity made for a page-turning read with much enjoyment to be had. But there was too much wheel spinning and some of the plotlines fizzled.

A tremendous of amount of detail - too much of it really - has been a hallmark of the series all along, but the first three books built to big set piece moments that made for very satisfying reading. Even A Feast for Crows with its big cliffhangers left me eager for more. Dance dangles a lot of potentially interesting and powerful plot developments and then mostly veers off and doesn't deliver.

There are a few really outstanding moments, including Bran meeting the greenseer, Drogon interrupting the proceedings in the fighting pits and Dany taking flight on him, and some of the startling moments of Theon's storyline (I never thought I'd have sympathy for Theon ever again, but I did indeed), but a lot of misfires, too.

The prospect of so many factions from Westeros converging on Dany could have made for a fascinating central storyline had things moved faster and all or most of them actually reached and interacted with her. Instead Tyrion gets waylaid again and again and gets mired in a storyline with Penny, who drains all the wit and charm out of Tyrion every time she's around.

Had the attack on Jon been written in such a way as to leave no doubt that he's dead it would have been a major shock moment, but the escape hatches available drain it of its power. The deferral of a resolution of the plotlines revolving around Stannis' march to Winterfell was frustrating and anticlimatic.

I don't think the producers of the TV series are going to have a problem cutting the material of Feast and Dance down to 20 episodes, but I think they'll have to restructure some of the storylines and add more punch to them since as written in the books there's not enough to sustain interest over two seasons. I don't think Jon, for example, can spend two seasons at the Wall slowly trying to rebuild the Night's Watch and forge an alliance with the wildlings. There's going to have to be more excitement there. Maybe he could ride off with Val on her mission north of the Wall.

 

[Shurik]

I finished the book yesterday. I would put it above AFFC but below the first three.

So, there’s no way Jon is dead. No way Stannis’ army is destroyed the way it’s described in Ramsay’s letter. Probably the opposite is true – there was a battle, Bolton’s forces were destroyed, he’s holed up in Winterfell and writing insane rambling letters to vent his frustration. This letter didn’t sound like something Roose Bolton would allow to send.

I didn’t understand the point of having 4 or 5 chapters about Quentyn Martell. His chapters are even more useless than Brienne’s from AFFC. Instead of reading about him, I would prefer more Victarion’s chapters or more Jaime or Cercei.
Speaking of Jaime – IMO Martin should’ve done one of the two things: either leave Jaime out of this book entirelyor add another one or two chapters to resolve his cliffhanger. The way it happened in the book, Brienne’s cliffhanger from AFFC was just exchanged for a similar one for Jaime, while learning nothing about how Brienne survived her cliffhanger.

I think that it really doesn’t matter if Aegon is the real deal or not. Looks like Jon Connighton believes that he’s real, there are not many people left who can prove it one way or another. If Dany ever gets to Westeros, and I’m starting to think that she might remain in Essos and build her slave-free empire there, it’ll be interesting to see the interaction between the two.

The epilogue will throw King’s Landing into further chaos, Cercei’s paranoia plus her humiliation with addition of Gregorstein will probably result in Mad King’s Best Moments, part 2.

And last, but not the least – Victarion Greyjoy is awesome. I wish he had more chapters and I think he will play a big part in what happens in Salver’s Bay. No one expects him, so his attack will be a surprise. The addition of the red priest who actually told him how to use the horn properly will probably result in Victarion having 2 dragons to himself.

Some fun small things I’ve liked:
- One of the Ironborn from Moat Cailin was described as having a very similar look to Innsmouth people from Lovecraft’s Shadow Over Innsmouth.
- At one point someone used a phrase “fart in your general direction”.
- Manderly’s ancient recipe for Frey pie.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

- Manderly’s ancient recipe for Frey pie.

Receive the blood: and when that they are dead,
Let me go grind their bones to powder small
And with this hateful liquor temper it;
And in that paste let their vile heads be baked.
Come, come, be every one officious
To make this banquet; which I wish may prove
More stern and bloody than the Centaurs' feast.
So, now bring them in, for I'll play the cook,
And see them ready 'gainst their mother comes.

-- Titus Andronicus Act 5, Scene 2

 

[Caliburn24]

Finished the book last night. And if I had to review it in one word that word would be "frustrating".

Martin is still a terrific writer, able to make you love and hate characters effortlessly while creating great atmosphere and keep you involved in the story. And there are a few brilliant moments.

But he wastes so many pages and chapters on things that really don't matter. Spending hundreds of pages on getting various characters from point A to point B(whether it is geographically or mentally/emotionally). Martin can move things along at a blistering pace when he wants to, as demonstrated by the last couple hundred pages, but the first 600-700 pages are just a slog.

But none of that matters, I'm hooked for the rest of the series. On to the more controversial stuff.

Jon--Obviously not dead/going to be resurrected in some way. Which makes that scene feel cheap. I almost wish that he was actually dead dead(almost).

Aegon--There is an interesting theory on Westeros and other places that he is actually Illyrio's son. There is some compelling indirect evidence for this, although I remain unconvinced. Whether or not Aegon is who he claims to be is really not important however, what is important is what Varys tells Kevan on the last page.

"Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that is not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."

Knowing what we know of Martin and how he tells a story can it be any more clear that Aegon is going to die swiftly? I give him a 50/50 chance of surviving the next book, at best.

Septa Lemore--I like to thing she is Ashara Dayne, and will go into her twilight years with Barristan once they meet up. But probably not.

Jon Connington--I like the character, and along with Howland Reed he is our best chance of ever learning Jon's true parentage. While writing ADWD Martin said that one POV in the book would be from a gay character. Considering the options and the way Connington thinks about Rhaegar it seems clear it is him.

 

[Shurik]

Knowing what we know of Martin and how he tells a story can it be any more clear that Aegon is going to die swiftly? I give him a 50/50 chance of surviving the next book, at best.

That would be an interesting development. He does several very successful battles, conquers almost the entire South and then dies from some random arrow near some small and unimportant keep. That would be classic GRRM.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if HBO splits the third book into two seasons with a heavy rewrite of the ending to conclude the show after four seasons.

 

[Shurik]

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if HBO splits the third book into two seasons with a heavy rewrite of the ending to conclude the show after four seasons.

There's enough material in AFFC and ADWD for 1.5 seasons at least. If Martin will release the next book by the end of the fourth season, or will at least have enough for showrunners to work with, and if the show will continue to be successful, there's no reason to stop after ASOS.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

There's enough material in AFFC and ADWD for 1.5 seasons at least. If Martin will release the next book by the end of the fourth season, or will at least have enough for showrunners to work with, and if the show will continue to be successful, there's no reason to stop after ASOS.

They're going to have to rework Feast and Dance quite heavily for it to work as two TV seasons ( and not just in terms of putting it into a single linear narrative). I could see them going ahead and doing that if they're confident they can keep the budget under control and that Martin will complete the series within the necessary timeframe. But if they think the budget will spiral out of control and that Martin is going to take too long to deliver the sixth and seventh books (or is going to be unable to wrap things up in seven books) then I could see them restructuring it as a four-season show. I'm not predicting that they'll do so. I'm just saying it's a possibility I wouldn't be surprised to see unfold.

 

[Shurik]

There's enough material in AFFC and ADWD for 1.5 seasons at least. If Martin will release the next book by the end of the fourth season, or will at least have enough for showrunners to work with, and if the show will continue to be successful, there's no reason to stop after ASOS.

They're going to have to rework Feast and Dance quite heavily for it to work as two TV seasons ( and not just in terms of putting it into a single linear narrative). I could see them going ahead and doing that if they're confident they can keep the budget under control and that Martin will complete the series within the necessary timeframe. But if they think the budget will spiral out of control and that Martin is going to take too long to deliver the sixth and seventh books (or is going to be unable to wrap things up in seven books) then I could see them restructuring it as a four-season show. I'm not predicting that they'll do so. I'm just saying it's a possibility I wouldn't be surprised to see unfold.

The reason I like ASOS the most is that the book sort of closes the arcs for all the main characters from the first three books. Jon is chosen the Lord Commander, Arya goes to Braavos, Bran is gone beyond the Wall, Tyrion is on the run, Daenerys decides to rule in Meereen and so on. At this point, there is no Greyjoy or Dorne plots to speak of. If the showrunners decide to do what you think they might do, they can end the show on those points. There will be no definite closures, but it's the best they'll have at that point if Martin will not finish the next book by then. I agree that adapting AFFC and ADWD without knowing what's coming next is impossible. Frankly, both books are incomplete.

 

[The Green Mushroom]

I read somewhere, perhaps westeros.org. that originally A Game of Thrones would end with the Red Wedding (pretty damned long book there) If that's the case, we are now only a part of the way through what Martin envisioned as the second book in a trilogy. That leads me to think two thing. One, Dragons is not a novel in the sense that its a long book that tells a story. And two, Martin would be a much better author, at least to me, if he would pick up the pace a bit.

Jon--Like others have said, it would be better if he really was dead, but I don't think he will die. At worst, he'll die and then he'll get better.

Danny--I also think she should have died as the dragons rampaged. Now it seems Book Six will bring us her merry adventures with The Khal and the Dragon while everyone else suffers around her. What a downer.

Tyrion--Is the new Arya. He just has less names and a shorter To Kill List.

Martell--Its nice to see that clear proof that absolutely EVERY SINGLE PERSON with any power in the Seven Kingdoms is an unmitigated moron.

Bran--Is now a Tree. That's nice.

Aegon--I think he is real. But I wonder why anyone whop hasn't known about him all along will believe him. Of course since the Spider is killing off the government in King's Landing, maybe Westeros would take whoever they can get.

Which leads me to my prediction (doubtless wrong)--Jon will die, get better and be expelled from the Watch on account that being dead means his watch is over. This will free him to save Stannis, take Theon home so that Jon Stark, Lord Theon and King Stannis can save the realm from the Others and then turn south and save the realm from everyone else.

And then all get eaten by dragons in the last chapter of Book Seven.

 

[Caliburn24]

Stannis is going to lose Stormsend, and presumably Melisandre is going to swing her support/magic to Jon. Whether or not Stannis is dead yet is kind of moot, he will no longer be a contender for the throne in the next book.

However, the Nightwatch has a job opening for a new Lord Commander, I think Stannis would fill that position nicely.

 

[Anwar]

Do people still believe that Cersei's kids are Roberts' children or have they all wised up and realized they're incest kids? Are the Lannisters holding onto King's Landing solely through military might with no real backing anymore?

 

[The Green Mushroom]

Do people still believe that Cersei's kids are Roberts' children or have they all wised up and realized they're incest kids? Are the Lannisters holding onto King's Landing solely through military might with no real backing anymore?

It seems everyone suspects it. But as long as the Lannisters and the Tyrells have their alliance, no one is going to do anything about it. In their defense, if everyone turns against Tommen their choices are Stannis or annarchy.

Though arriving Targaryen's may change things in the next book.

 

[Shurik]

Stannis is going to lose Stormsend, and presumably Melisandre is going to swing her support/magic to Jon. Whether or not Stannis is dead yet is kind of moot, he will no longer be a contender for the throne in the next book.

However, the Nightwatch has a job opening for a new Lord Commander, I think Stannis would fill that position nicely.

I wonder if anyone will want the job at all, considering how two previous LCs ended up.

 

[Venardhi]

I'm trying to come up with a visual of the Children/Singers for a painting I want to do.

Here are a few possibilities I've sketched up for possible ways they could look.

Leaning towards the first, which is the one I'm working with for color tests.

 

[Kegg]

Stannis is going to lose Stormsend, and presumably Melisandre is going to swing her support/magic to Jon. Whether or not Stannis is dead yet is kind of moot, he will no longer be a contender for the throne in the next book.

I wouldn't be sure. Really, I was ready to count Stannis out in Book 2 (where I still think any serious chance of him winning the throne was dashed) but the simple fact that the Lannister/Tyrell cause is in serious jeopardy and more elements have been thrown into play indicate that it's possible Stannis' relatively small retinue of followers could survive another book. Stannis survived even when the Lannisters held a decesive upper hand, and at the end of this novel nobody has that anymore.

Admittedly I do like Stannis which doubtless colours my view here somewhat. But he's worthy of a bitter, pointless, tragic end, and it better be wrenching when that axe finally falls.

I don't think the producers of the TV series are going to have a problem cutting the material of Feast and Dance down to 20 episodes,

Honestly think they could do it in ten. Granted, I feel Storm of Swords could be ten episodes too, so one can take or leave that.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Honestly think they could do it in ten. Granted, I feel Storm of Swords could be ten episodes too, so one can take or leave that.

Ten episodes for Storm might cut through the fat and into the bone, but I think they could do it in twelve.

Martin has said he'd like to see Feast and Dance adapted as three seasons, which is mind-boggling now that I've read both.

I actually think you're right that both could be condensed into a 10-hour storyline, although I think it'd flow a whole lot better if HBO divided them into essentially two mini-series, one of six hours with the Westeros storyline and one of four hours with the Essos storyline. Plus I think the producers are really going to need The Winds of Winter to be published before they embark on adapting Feast and Dance so that they can include the proper climatic events.

 

[Kegg]

Ten episodes for Storm might cut through the fat and into the bone, but I think they could do it in twelve.

Twelve also sounds good.

To play devil's advocate for the two season break I just argued against, one benefit of making Storm two seasons is having, say, "Red Wedding" as Episode 9, as that takes place smack in the middle of the novel as I recall.

But generally, two seasons for Storms, then three for these two novels? This is HBO. The Soopranos, with its longer-than-average sixth season, is the longest drama show they've ever done. Martin seems to be envisioning something like a decade's worth of television, which may be stretching it a bit.

I actually think you're right that both could be condensed into a 10-hour storyline, although I think it'd flow a whole lot better if HBO divided them into essentially two mini-series, one of six hours with the Westeros storyline and one of four hours with the Essos storyline.

With the Essos and Westeros episodes alternating over the run, totally. It's a structure the series partly toyed with, as there's an episode or two without Daenerys entirely (or otherwise lacking the Wall).

Plus I think the producers are really going to need The Winds of Winter to be published before they embark on adapting Feast and Dance so that they can include the proper climatic events.

One would hope that book is done. The first season really benefited from a few novel's foresight; the entire use of Theon over the year - not to mention Renly and Loras - had seedings of plot threads for season two. And of course, Jaime's characterisation was largely lifted from Storms.