Lt. Saavik or Lt. Valeris

[HaventGotALife]

The Sex and the City thing is a problem. Admittedly every time l see Valaris I expect her to lean over and smugly say "and that's when I sucked his c*ck".

 

[los2188]

And I agree with you on Catrall. Of the three actors who played the role (yes, I know Valeris wasn't Saavik in character, but in spirit...), Catrall was my least favorite.

I also forgot to mention that Saavik had way more of a motive than Valeris, seeing as how she was right there when the Klingons killed David Marcus in cold blood.[/QUOTE]

That's exactly why I believe Saavik was the best choice to be the traitor in this movie. I understand how people say things like "it's not in her character", or she's too logical or whatever, but to me, that's the reason why she is the better choice. The shock value of it being her for those reasons are why to me Saavik would have been perfect!!! Since I'm always right, (right ladies?) how could anyone argue?!!

 

[22 Stars]

They should have over ruled Roddenberry

Meyer did. He says as much on his commentary on the DVD. Meyer had to let Roddenberry read every draft script, but Paramount didn't have to listen to any of Roddenberry's concerns. And then GR had the right to withhold his "Creative Consultant" credit, as a signal to fans that the film did not have his blessing.

and cast someone else if Katrall REALLY didn't want to play Saavik.

Meyer himself prefers not to direct sequels. He'd be the first person to understand an actress not wanting to be expected to emulate a role created by two previous actresses.

The role was written as Saavik and should have stayed that way. There are a literally 1000 actresses who would have been thrilled to play Saavik and done a great job.

And the point is, Meyer wanted to work with Cattrall. Had wanted to since ST II. Creators and performers are usually allowed to reach consensus.

Ian, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know, what I'm saying is that his desire to have the character be Saavik should have overridden (sp?) his desire to work with Kim Cattrall, she isn't exactly Meryl Streep for god's sake

For me, as a fan and Paramount employee at the time, I had read the draft where it was written for Saavik and when I saw a screening print of the film, it just didn't hold together as well with a random new Vulcan protoge.

 

[22 Stars]

^ Well, overruling Roddenberry, who had virtually no involvement in the films by that point, would be one thing. But overruling your director and trying to force him to cast an actress he didn't want in a major role would be quite a different matter.

Thanks Tom, I didn't mean to say that they should overrule Meyer, he was running the show for the most part on this film. I'm saying that the role should have stayed Saavik, I'm sure they could have talked Cattrall into playing her.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'm sure they could have talked Cattrall into playing her.

No, she was resolute she wasn't interested in a third-hand character. She was gonna walk.

And you know what, if there'd been a third Saavik, and she was played by the Cattrall, and she was a traitor, the fans would have been ANGRY.

The Saavik-as-traitor concept works only if it's the Saavik people had already invested in. Alley's Saavik would have been perfect. Curtis's Saavik would still have worked (but Meyer wasn't interested). Cattrall's Saavik would have been called an interloper.

It made sense to reconfigure the character as Valeris. Unfortunately for me (and others), she stuck me as a baddie from her very first scene. (Add to that a caption I saw in a "Cinefantastique" spread which suggested her role very strongly.)

 

[Jetboogieman]

Why not both? My beds big enough

And there's plenty of Jet for everybody

 

[G2309]

Saavik would have made more sense motive ise after what happpened on the Genesis planet.

 

[22 Stars]

I'm sure they could have talked Cattrall into playing her.

No, she was resolute she wasn't interested in a third-hand character. She was gonna walk.

And you know what, if there'd been a third Saavik, and she was played by the Cattrall, and she was a traitor, the fans would have been ANGRY.

The Saavik-as-traitor concept works only if it's the Saavik people had already invested in. Alley's Saavik would have been perfect. Curtis's Saavik would still have worked (but Meyer wasn't interested). Cattrall's Saavik would have been called an interloper.

It made sense to reconfigure the character as Valeris. Unfortunately for me (and others), she stuck me as a baddie from her very first scene. (Add to that a caption I saw in a "Cinefantastique" spread which suggested her role very strongly.)

We all have opinions and I just have to disagree on the point that a) Catrall would have walked if they called her character a different name. Hell they could have called her Valeris on the stage and then ADR'd it later back to Saavik. B) fans would have called her an interloper. First who cares, fans sa a lot of stupid things. Second, they said the same thing about Robin Curtis who is a sweetheart.

I do agree that she was obviously a bad guy, and that had a lot to do with the fact that she WASN"T playing Saavik.

 

[Harvey]

Meyer did. He says as much on his commentary on the DVD. Meyer had to let Roddenberry read every draft script, but Paramount didn't have to listen to any of Roddenberry's concerns. And then GR had the right to withhold his "Creative Consultant" credit, as a signal to fans that the film did not have his blessing.

Is that why the film doesn't give him the "Creative Consultant" credit? (IIRC)

 

[Therin of Andor]

I just have to disagree on the point that a) Catrall would have walked if they called her character a different name.

That's not what I said. She'd have walked (without signing) if she'd had to play Saavik. Cattrall said as much in interviews at the time. She had no interest in playing a character that had already been portrayed on screen three times and by two other actresses. What ended up intriguing her was helping to create a brand new character and backstory. Cattrall supplied the new name ("Eris") - to which Meyer added a more Vulcan-sounding prefix - designed the unique metal headband (visiting the props department with her ideas) - and turned up on set to surprise everyone with the severely undercut hairstyle.

fans would have called her an interloper. First who cares, fans sa a lot of stupid things.

Of course, but turning a beloved character into a villain is always a very risky thing. Ditto recasting, and esp. killing off a character. (Remember the Save Spock debacle making it into the "Wall Street Journal" and "Variety", and Susan Sackett riling up fans at a UK convention, causing Harve Bennett to reconfigure the script, moving Spock's death from early in the film to the climax, and then "killing" everyone in the Kobayashi Maru Scenario red herring. And just ask the producers of "Dallas", who declared a whole season of episodes a dream in order to get Bobby Ewing back. Fans hold grudges. That doesn't mean they should be pandered to, but strong feelings from your audience can make or break a movie.

Second, they said the same thing about Robin Curtis who is a sweetheart.

Sure, but Alley still seems to be the most popular Saavik. What does being "a sweetheart" have to do with her on-screen character?

I do agree that she was obviously a bad guy, and that had a lot to do with the fact that she WASN"T playing Saavik.

Exactly. So the "big reveal" may not have worked the way Meyer had planned, because the performance leading up to the big reveal may not have rung true.

 

[22 Stars]

Let me be clear, i do not believe, regardless of what she has said, that she WOULD have turned down the part. End of story. She just wasn't and isn't that high a profile, or descriminating actress to turn down a featured role in a feature film.

Also, I think her performance would have been fine as Saavik, and agree that even if named Saavik she might have tipped the bad guy thing, but not AS MUCH as it did not having her at least named Saavik with all that brings to the table.

 

[Therin of Andor]

regardless of what she has said...

Well, she did turn down the role. And Meyer had to woo her back by agreeing to create a new character with her.

 

[Klaa2]

I was reading the other day about ST: Undiscovered Country and I learned that the role of Lt. Valeris was supposed to be Lt. Saavik. They made the role Lt. Valeris because first of all Kim Cattrall, who was the original pick to be Saavik in Wrath of Khan, didn't want to be the third person to play the character of Saavik, and second, Gene Roddenberry didn't want to have the beloved character of Saavik be a "bad guy." It's really a shame that he felt that way because I think having Saavik be the traitor would have been excellent. I'm just curious...would you rather it be Saavik or Valeris to be the traitor on ST: Undiscovered Country....?

I have great difficulty telling them apart

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Valeris makes a great traitor. Given all Saavik had been through with the crew I doubt she would've become embroiled in the assassination plot.

 

[TrickyDickie]

Kirk: "Damn....they've revived another ancient thread."

Spock: "If I were fully human, I believe my response would be 'Oh, shit'."

 

[Mojochi]

Saavik, but maybe I'll change my mind by 7 years from now, when we resurrect this thread again

Interestingly enough, my opinion has changed a little. I only think it works for Saavik from a story point of view. I don't think it would've worked to bring Curtis back to play it, & I agree that a 3rd actress in the role would've been really lame

So, if Alley (or Cattrail, both are good) had played the character all through the franchise, then it could've been fantastic for her to fall out, especially with how close she'd been to Kirk's son & Spock in TSFS.

Besides, I never bought the Roddenberry wouldn't have liked sullying such a beloved character thing. Since when did he give a crap about anything to do with TWOK? I always thought he considered most of the movie franchise abominations etc..

 

[Lance]

Besides, I never bought the Roddenberry wouldn't have liked sullying such a beloved character thing. Since when did he give a crap about anything to do with TWOK? I always thought he considered most of the movie franchise abominations etc..

My feeling is that Gene was feeling powerful for really the first time since TMP, largely thanks to TNG finally having had breakthrough as a success, and was throwing his weight around. Technically I don't think Meyer or anyone else were obligated to listen to him even at that stage, but may have felt compelled to take at least some of his input on board as a goodwill gesture.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Guys, if you want to keep discussing this, please make a new thread. This one is closed. Remember, the guideline is that a thread that hasn't been responded to in a year is dead. Thank you.