Timo. Dennis. King Daniel. In this thread. With the candlestick.
Nu-Enterprise Crew Complement
- Thread starter CuttingEdge100
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Timo. Dennis. King Daniel. In this thread. With the candlestick.
Bullshit. No one's saying this. The only person who's referred (or inferred) to the TOS Enterprise as an "insignificant dinghy" is you, in your attempt to make up shit to argue about just for the sake of arguing, like you always do, when it comes to this movie.
Vance, I'm still waiting for a single piece of evidence that backs your point about the Kelvin's inability to fit into the Prime timeline.
As oppossed to the handful of fans that have decalred TOS to be religious doctrine and that anything new in the realm of Star Trek, especially JJ Adams' movie, is obviously wrong and you're a horrible person if you think otherwise.
Look, folks, it's been two years now. Let's just get over it and move on. There are Trek fans who like TOs to the exclusion of all else. There are Trek fans who like trek excelt for TOS. there are fans of nuTrek who don't like anything else.
The sandbox is big enough for everyone, isn't it?
Vance
Yup... the design of the Kelvin itself throws a monkey wrench into everything...
Yup... the design of the Kelvin itself throws a monkey wrench into everything...
To reiterate (perhaps you'll be good enough to reply, this time): So where's the problem? Feel free to cite specific examples of dialogue, etc. from movie or TV episode in support.
No, Vance. I merely compared the TOS-1701 with Voyager. Y'know, that ship that did more of everything the TNG Enterprise did despite it's significantly smaller size and crew compliment.
IIRC, last time this came up didn't someone post that "Heavy Cruisers" actually aren't the biggest (seagoing) ships around and that it only means "heavy" within it's size category?Vance said:
I'm not sure when or where this might have come up the last time, but yes - in modern navies, cruisers constitute a group of ship classes larger than destroyers and smaller than battleships. "Cruiser" initially referred to a type of mission—to be executed by a single vessel, independently of any fleet or flotilla (NCC-1701's five-year missions would fit the category, so far as we can tell)—and only secondarily to the kind of ship which would carry out such a mission. "Heavy cruiser" came to mean one such ship which was speedier and more heavily armed than whatever could be deemed an "average" cruiser; this did not mean that it was the biggest or the most advanced, only that the ship was expected to be capable of taking care of business unassisted.
Yes, that's all conveniently vague, and the lines are further blurred by the facts that A) modern destroyers may carry more bang than did even heavy cruisers of previous generations, B) many modern navies operate no cruisers at all, C) battleships are generally considered to have been rendered obsolete during the 20th century by advances in weapons technology and, lastly...
D) none of this necessarily applies in any hard-and-fast way to fictional 23rd-century spaceborne fleets and ship-classes, and nothing presented in this thread or elsewhere necessarily precludes the existence of a large vessel such as the Kelvin carrying out Starfleet survey missions three decades prior to the events depicted in TOS.
It was also confirmed by the writer.
Which supposes that the Kelvin is a "explorer" (or maybe a cruiser) as opposed to
a lightly armed passager transport.
Unless it appears on screen, a writers personal opinion carries no more weight than
anyone eases personal opinion.
By that logic, so is the Delta Flyer, Defiant, DS9's Runabouts and the Galileo 7, all of which have been sent on missions to investigate strange phenomena just as the Kelvin was at the beginning of STXI.
It did appear on the screen. Did you not read KingDaniel's quote?
And BTW, I do think that the actual writer's opinion/intention/etc. carries a bit more weight than the opinion of Joe InternetStarTrekNerd who had no input in the process at all.
Arguably, VOYAGER was the best ship in the fleet, with its bio-neural gelpacks and warp 9.975 cruising speed. Of course, a couple of years later Geordi calls the Enterprise-E "the most advanced ship in the fleet."
And yet, neither of those vessels were the LARGEST ships in Starfleet, and the Sovereign class Enterprise-E is actually SMALLER (in terms of overall volume) than the aging Ambassador class.
Even in NAVAL terminology, "heavy cruiser" isn't the biggest ship in the fleet, they're still quite a bit smaller than battleships, carriers and later supercarriers.
When was NCC-1701 ever referred to as a "Federation fleet carrier?"
Unless she's Starfleet's equivalent of an LHA (shuttlecraft carrier vessel?), which would require her at least twice as large as a heavy cruiser.
Actually, this particular fact has been pointed out to Vance at least six times before. Usually in Trek Tech.
There's probably a long-held fan perception that Starfleet would only give the Enterprise name to its largest frontline vessel--thus making the heavy cruiser the biggest starship type during TOS--but there's nothing to really confirm that.
For all we know, the size of the Kelvin could be a direct result of her NOT being as advanced and powerful as the original Enterprise. I'm typing this on an iPod Touch that fits the palm of my hand but us equipped with a 1ghz processor that would put my old 350mhz iMac from the turn of the century to absolute shame. A current base model Ford Mustang has a V6 that makes as much or more power than most of the V8 engined models that came before. The point is that as technology matures, one of the most visible advances is typically efficiency, being able to extract more performance from a given piece of equipment, more reliably.
For all we know, the Kelvin HAD to be built big to carry dozens of shuttlecraft and hundreds of extra crew for landing parties for in-depth investigative surveys of planets that ships like the Enterprise would have made the initial survey of and then continued on charting uncharted territories. She could have to be that big just to hold an engine built with the technology of her era just big enough to make Warp Eight, something the newer Enterprise could not just reach but maintain with much smaller engines, using less overall power, and requiring a maintenance crew a tenth the size to maintain reliability standards.
Both of those examples would mean that the Enterprise could carry a smaller crew, which means less stores, less space given way to crew accommodations, ship's stores, atmospheric processing, waste processing, and everything else you would need to support a crew on a long term mission.
For all we know, the Kelvin HAD to be built big to carry dozens of shuttlecraft and hundreds of extra crew for landing parties for in-depth investigative surveys of planets that ships like the Enterprise would have made the initial survey of and then continued on charting uncharted territories. She could have to be that big just to hold an engine built with the technology of her era just big enough to make Warp Eight, something the newer Enterprise could not just reach but maintain with much smaller engines, using less overall power, and requiring a maintenance crew a tenth the size to maintain reliability standards.
Both of those examples would mean that the Enterprise could carry a smaller crew, which means less stores, less space given way to crew accommodations, ship's stores, atmospheric processing, waste processing, and everything else you would need to support a crew on a long term mission.
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