Is this supposed to be retconning?
George Takei is gay. Hikaru Sulu was never meant to be gay. Hell, in GEN he's even shown to have a daughter.This.
What Is the Definitive Version of TMP?
- Thread starter Joanna McCoy-Kirk
- Start date
George Takei is gay. Hikaru Sulu was never meant to be gay. Hell, in GEN he's even shown to have a daughter.
They weren't really new effects, though, not in conception or design; they were effects shots that were intended to be in the film all along but weren't finished in time for the film's release. Only the technology used to create them was new. They were created according to the original storyboards and designs (with a very few updates), and every effort was made to give them an appearance consistent with 1979 technology. Film grain from the same batch used to shoot TMP was scanned and superimposed on the digital effects shots. The digital Enterprise model was matched to the physical miniature as exactly as possible. There were no camera moves inconsistent with 1979 motion-control model photography. CG animation shots were done in 2D and 12 frames per second to match the look of the hand-rendered cel animation of the period.
Basically, the DE was treated as an exercise in film restoration. That's the specialty of the people who oversaw the project. Except that instead of restoring a damaged film to the best possible approximation of the way it had originally looked, as has been done with Metropolis and other old films, it was an attempt to "restore" elements of the film that were supposed to be done in 1979 but were left incomplete. TMP was "messed up" all along. It wasn't released in the form Robert Wise wanted or intended. He always wanted to fix it, to finish it. It's just that it took 22 years before he finally got the chance.
Who says gay men can't have children?
Republicans.
No where in TOS or the films does it ever hint that Sulu could be gay. Even so many of the published novels didn't entertain the idea. Just because Takei comes out decades later is no justification to try retconning something that was never even considered back in the day when the character was conceived and portrayed.
For the life of me I can't remember Sulu showing any interest towards anyone in TOS. We do have Mirror-Sulu making advances towards Uhura in Mirror, Mirror.
I think it's safe for individual viewers to interpret it any way they like.
What about ogling Vixis in TFF? Does that mean anything?
I'm not saying that Sulu IS gay, i'm just saying simply, what does it matter what sexuality the character is? He could be straight, gay, bisexual, whatever, but still have children. Consider that 23rd century is portrayed as more enlightened, for all we know Sulu could be pansexual and it wouldn't matter one bit.
Did anyone make a big deal out of the fact Riker had a relationship with a member of a dual gendered species in "The Outcast", despite being portrayed as a straight man?
Did anyone make a big deal out of the fact Riker had a relationship with a member of a dual gendered species in "The Outcast", despite being portrayed as a straight man?
Except that the DE doesn't hold to the original storyboards or shot designs in many cases. People can claim that it's so, but Trevanian (who departed this board a while back) and I have both talked to people who worked on TMP and know that not to be the case. The day the DE came out I sent a copy to Andy Probert and a few days later got quite an earful from him about it.
Speaking of people who worked on TMP, back around 1995 or so I had a fun phone conversation with master modelmaker Greg Jein, who told me two particular things that stick in my memory:
1. On TMP they built so much stuff for Spock's spacewalk that they had nowhere to put it when the production ended as a lot of it had no possible re-use. They'd literally give stuff to visitors to the shop. "Here, take a planet!" I believe was the quote.
2. Around that time he'd managed to get his hands back on one of the smaller "flying phallus" rocketships he'd built for Flesh Gordon and he joked that the next time they did a spaceship graveyard on a Star Trek show he'd sneak it in. I said "As the U.S.S. John Thomas?" which got a big laugh.
Speaking of people who worked on TMP, back around 1995 or so I had a fun phone conversation with master modelmaker Greg Jein, who told me two particular things that stick in my memory:
1. On TMP they built so much stuff for Spock's spacewalk that they had nowhere to put it when the production ended as a lot of it had no possible re-use. They'd literally give stuff to visitors to the shop. "Here, take a planet!" I believe was the quote.
2. Around that time he'd managed to get his hands back on one of the smaller "flying phallus" rocketships he'd built for Flesh Gordon and he joked that the next time they did a spaceship graveyard on a Star Trek show he'd sneak it in. I said "As the U.S.S. John Thomas?" which got a big laugh.
It matters if his character was defined one way or another. And Sulu was shown to have an interest in women. And you can bet your ass that Roddenberry sure as hell didn't likely consider any of his TOS characters to be gay as he conceived them.
Other than Kirk and Spock, of course.
The movie I saw called Star Trek - The Motion Picture on December 7, 1979 was a finished film. That it may not have been a film that everyone involved was entirely happy with happens to be a commonplace in the business.
The movie I saw called Star Trek - The Motion Picture on December 7, 1979 was a finished film. That it may not have been a film that everyone involved was entirely happy with happens to be a commonplace in the business.
Paramount had an iron-clad agreement with theatres and a lot of money on the line, so they struck the necessary number of prints and released the film when the date arrived. But the film as released had an incomplete sound mix and a number of temporary inserts (like that endless shot of the Federation seal during Kirk's introductory sequence) still in place.
Does that count as a "finished" film? I guess, in the sense that it was theatrically released. But everyone involved sure seemed to think that it needed more work.
Does that count as a "finished" film? I guess, in the sense that it was theatrically released. But everyone involved sure seemed to think that it needed more work.
My favorite version of TMP is the director's cut - I definitely hope it can some day be released on Blu-Ray.
That being said, one of my favorite scenes in the whole film is in the SLV. It's the extended version of the argument between McCoy and Kirk in Kirk's quarters. In the theatrical and director's cuts, the editing and overdubbing seems way off. It cuts right to McCoy saying "The point is that it's you who's competing." It's only in the SLV that we get the complete scene, which starts with McCoy going "And another thing..." then Kirk waves him off, with a "Get out of here, Bones" and McCoy replies icily, "As ship's doctor, I am now discussing the subject...of COMMAND FITNESS." I always wondered why none of the other versions have that whole scene, because there is absolutely no special effects work and thus no reason to cut it! Perhaps this scene can be edited back in somehow. I hope.
That being said, one of my favorite scenes in the whole film is in the SLV. It's the extended version of the argument between McCoy and Kirk in Kirk's quarters. In the theatrical and director's cuts, the editing and overdubbing seems way off. It cuts right to McCoy saying "The point is that it's you who's competing." It's only in the SLV that we get the complete scene, which starts with McCoy going "And another thing..." then Kirk waves him off, with a "Get out of here, Bones" and McCoy replies icily, "As ship's doctor, I am now discussing the subject...of COMMAND FITNESS." I always wondered why none of the other versions have that whole scene, because there is absolutely no special effects work and thus no reason to cut it! Perhaps this scene can be edited back in somehow. I hope.
Again I rephrase my statement "I'm not saying Sulu IS gay". I just don't think its out of the realm of possibilities to interpret that sexuality is more fluid in the trekverse and it doesn't really matter if Demora was a result of a one night stand with a human or an alien. We've not seen Demora's mother on screen and therefore its fair game for any authors to speculate on how she may have been raised.
If they want to make Sulu gay in nuTrek they're welcome to do it because they're rebooting the whole thing. But incorrectly interpreting something already established is ridiculous.
Where was it established that any character was "straight"? I'm not doubting what you are saying, its just good to keep an open mind. I couldn't give a flying proverbial what sexuality a character is, but I think its incorrect to say something like this was "already established".
Sulu has been seen with women in TOS, but then again he was still a young man, he may have still been coming to terms with his sexuality. Who said that Ilia's pheromone effects don't affect any male, regardless of sexuality? As for the thing with Vixis, he could merely have been tagging along with Chekov to wind him up as Chekov tried to pull the Klingon officer. Then again Sulu might be bisexual and therefore none of the above justifications really matter. All I know is, it was never explicitly stated that Sulu or anyone else, for that matter, was straight, gay or bisexual, whatever.
^^ At least three instances have been cited upthread to indicate Sulu's orientation. Add those to the prevailing mindset of the era in which the character was conceived. Do the math.
TOS may have been willing to try testing the limits of accepted convention by pushing the role of women. Do you really think any of them would have had the notion of, "Oh, yeah, let's try slipping a gay character in there unnoticed." Some did that in feature films, but no one was going to consider it for television, certainly not in that era.
And so what you have is creator intent defining Sulu's orientation primarily because no one at the time would have considered it otherwise.
TOS may have been willing to try testing the limits of accepted convention by pushing the role of women. Do you really think any of them would have had the notion of, "Oh, yeah, let's try slipping a gay character in there unnoticed." Some did that in feature films, but no one was going to consider it for television, certainly not in that era.
And so what you have is creator intent defining Sulu's orientation primarily because no one at the time would have considered it otherwise.
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