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Is Greece an example of the failure of Socialism?

DarthTom

DarthTom

Fleet Admiral
Admiral
Greece more than other European countries is in a shambles. And unlike some other European countries Greece pretty much is one of the most socialist of any of them.

Socialism defined as 'government ownership of the means of production.' Greece is now being forced by its neighbors to sell off government assets to continue getting European loans.

So is Greece a good example of the failure of socialism?

. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
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Greece
ATHENS, Greece (AP) -- Greece was hit by rolling blackouts Monday as employees at the main power utility began 48-hour rolling strikes to protest the company's privatization, part of austerity plans needed to avoid a national debt default.
The sell-off of state assets in the power company is a major step in a euro50 billion ($71 billion) privatization drive that must be completed by 2015. It is part of highly unpopular austerity plans, including more tax hikes and spending cuts, that must be passed by Parliament by the end of the month if Greece is to get the next euro12 billion installment of its euro110 billion bailout next month. The troubled Socialist government is also struggling to make up for ongoing budget shortfalls.
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This downturn was caused by the private sector aka BANKS, not the public sector. What Greece's problem is they are shitty at Socialism, not Socialism is shitty.
 
And they have a shitty ineffective private sector as well - plus a culture of tax evasion - bit hard to pin all of this at the doors of 'socialism'.
 
Socialism is not Greece's problem. Rampant corruption, tax evasion, and deficit spending are responsible for their woes. Greek officials also lied about their country's debt load, which has ruined their credibility and thus their creditability, so they can't get loans with preferable rates anymore, and thus must sell off assets and make painful guarantees in order to borrow.
 
Also, Greece isn't a socialist country and never has been. The second half of your thread title is approximately 20 years late. Most of the formerly socialist countries sort of switched to capitalism at that time. ;)
 
Robert Maxwell said:
Socialism is not Greece's problem. Rampant corruption, tax evasion, and deficit spending are responsible for their woes. Greek officials also lied about their country's debt load, which has ruined their credibility and thus their creditability, so they can't get loans with preferable rates anymore, and thus must sell off assets and make painful guarantees in order to borrow.
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Why then are the employees of the power company childishly [IMO] causing rolling blackouts throughout the country because of privatization?
 
Because they don't want to pay (with their jobs, quite likely) for the mess someone else made. It's quite a common sentiment in Europe. Why do you think the other EU countries are so reluctant to loan more money to Greece? Because they - or more precisely their populations - don't want to pay for someone else's mess, either.
 
Count Zero said:
Because they don't want to pay (with their jobs, quite likely) for the mess someone else made. It's quite a common sentiment in Europe. Why do you think the other EU countries are so reluctant to loan more money to Greece? Because they - or more precisely their populations - don't want to pay for someone else's mess, either.
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In a Democracy one is forced to live with someone else's 'mess.' Look at the Italians their PM is an ongoing embarrassment. And here in the US for generations we will be paying for George W. Bush's war with Iraq.

That's called life. Children stomp their feet in defiance and turn out the lights on people who don't deserve it. Grown ups IMO roll up their sleeves and figure out how to fix shit and get things done.
 
DarthTom said:
Robert Maxwell said:
Socialism is not Greece's problem. Rampant corruption, tax evasion, and deficit spending are responsible for their woes. Greek officials also lied about their country's debt load, which has ruined their credibility and thus their creditability, so they can't get loans with preferable rates anymore, and thus must sell off assets and make painful guarantees in order to borrow.
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Why then are the employees of the power company childishly [IMO] causing rolling blackouts throughout the country because of privatization?
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This might shock you Tom, but in Europe, people in the private sector strike as well.
 
DarthTom said:
Count Zero said:
Because they don't want to pay (with their jobs, quite likely) for the mess someone else made. It's quite a common sentiment in Europe. Why do you think the other EU countries are so reluctant to loan more money to Greece? Because they - or more precisely their populations - don't want to pay for someone else's mess, either.
Click to expand...

In a Democracy one is forced to live with someone else's 'mess.' Look at the Italians their PM is an ongoing embarrassment. And here in the US for generations we will be paying for George W. Bush's war with Iraq.

That's called life. Children stomp their feet in defiance and turn out the lights on people who don't deserve it. Grown ups IMO roll up their sleeves and figure out how to fix shit and get things done.
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Bush and Berlusconi were both elected. No one elected the bankers who caused this. Our economic system has absolutely nothing to do with democracy. It's undemocratic and intransparent.
Just because you accept everything like a sheep doesn't mean everyone else has to. Going on strike is pretty much the last resort and it's powerless enough anyway, in the end.
It's downright laughable how even the mighty European countries can't get private debtors to renounce part of the Greek debt to help matters. Yet, millions of Greeks are expected to accept severe cuts in their salaries, pensions and public services.
 
Count Zero said:
DarthTom said:
Count Zero said:
Because they don't want to pay (with their jobs, quite likely) for the mess someone else made. It's quite a common sentiment in Europe. Why do you think the other EU countries are so reluctant to loan more money to Greece? Because they - or more precisely their populations - don't want to pay for someone else's mess, either.
Click to expand...

In a Democracy one is forced to live with someone else's 'mess.' Look at the Italians their PM is an ongoing embarrassment. And here in the US for generations we will be paying for George W. Bush's war with Iraq.

That's called life. Children stomp their feet in defiance and turn out the lights on people who don't deserve it. Grown ups IMO roll up their sleeves and figure out how to fix shit and get things done.
Click to expand...

Bush and Berlusconi were both elected. No one elected the bankers who caused this. Our economic system has absolutely nothing to do with democracy. It's undemocratic and intransparent.
Just because you accept everything like a sheep doesn't mean everyone else has to. Going on strike is pretty much the last resort and it's powerless enough anyway, in the end.
It's downright laughable how even the mighty European countries can't get private debtors to renounce part of the Greek debt to help matters. Yet, millions of Greeks are expected to accept severe cuts in their salaries, pensions and public services.
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Yeah, remember when teachers, police, firefighters, factory workers, and unions caused the global financial meltdown? Now they get to pay for their arrogance!

Those poor bankers didn't do anything wrong, it's only right that they get to walk away with their stockpiles of cash.
 
Robert Maxwell said:
You heard it here first: in DarthTom's world, people standing up for their rights is childish.
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Inflicting pain by turning out the power on the entire population - many of whom have done nothing at all other than live their lives - is yes IMO childish and an immature way to protest privatization.

IF they wanted to act like adults - drive to Berlin and march on Merkel's office - because her government is one that is demanding these measure in order for Greece to continue to get loans.
 
DarthTom said:
Count Zero said:
Because they don't want to pay (with their jobs, quite likely) for the mess someone else made. It's quite a common sentiment in Europe. Why do you think the other EU countries are so reluctant to loan more money to Greece? Because they - or more precisely their populations - don't want to pay for someone else's mess, either.
Click to expand...

In a Democracy one is forced to live with someone else's 'mess.' Look at the Italians their PM is an ongoing embarrassment. And here in the US for generations we will be paying for George W. Bush's war with Iraq.

That's called life. Children stomp their feet in defiance and turn out the lights on people who don't deserve it. Grown ups IMO roll up their sleeves and figure out how to fix shit and get things done.
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What's your point besides Americanz >>>> Greeks.
 
DarthTom said:
Robert Maxwell said:
You heard it here first: in DarthTom's world, people standing up for their rights is childish.
Click to expand...

Inflicting pain by turning out the power on the entire population - many of whom have done nothing at all other than live their lives - is yes IMO childish and an immature way to protest privatization.

IF they wanted to act like adults - drive to Berlin and march on Merkel's office - because her government is one that is demanding these measure in order for Greece to continue to get loans.
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Ah, so let me get this straight:

1. Greek citizens should not strike because it causes pain for other Greek citizens.
2. Greek citizens should instead sack up and take whatever punishment the rest of the world deems fit to inflict upon them.

Funny, I see Greek citizens suffering under either scenario, yet you clearly find one to be more appropriate than the other. I guess getting fucked in the ass is fine as long as it's bankers and politicians doing the fucking.
 
JarodRussell said:
What's your point besides Americanz >>>> Greeks.
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That isn't my point actually. I don't understand why employees of a power company would punish other Greeks with power outages - when the people they are punishing have little of anything to do with the current crisis.

Larger than that, I was asking the broader question related to public owernship of property versus private and Greece being forced to sell public assets to stay afloat. Does this model work?

It's worth noting that decades ago under Thatcher's government the British got out of the public ownership business of many industries and is doing much better than Greece in this current crisis. Is there causation there?
 
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