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Is Greece an example of the failure of Socialism?

DarthTom said:
JarodRussell said:
What's your point besides Americanz >>>> Greeks.
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That isn't my point actually. I don't understand why employees of a power company would punish other Greeks with power outages - when the people they are punishing have little of anything to do with the current crisis.
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Not true. Businesses are not powered by sunshine and farts, you know. They need electricity, too. Including banks.

Larger than that, I was asking the broader question related to public owernship of property versus private and Greece being forced to sell public assets to stay afloat. Does this model work?
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Does what work? Being forced to sell assets? No, this is what we call a "fire sale." Assets are no doubt being sold at far less than market value. Guess who benefits from this? The private buyers. The people of Greece just get bent over the barrel.

It's worth noting that decades ago under Thatcher's government the British got out of the public ownership business of many industries and is doing much better than Greece in this current crisis. Is there causation there?
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No. It was already explained to you that Greece suffers rampant corruption and tax evasion, coupled with massive deficit spending and overly generous government pensions. Take all those things together and you have a recipe for disaster. Government ownership of capital really has nothing to do with it.

In which topic would you like to get schooled next, Tom?
 
Also, it could be argued whether the UK is really doing so much better than Greece. They have a much better standing on the financial market, i.e. with rating agencies, and they probably have more potential or are seen that way but their deficit is as high as Greece's, as far as I know.
 
Robert Maxwell said:
In which topic would you like to get schooled next, Tom?
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According to the Economist public borrowing has a lot to do with their problems. A lot of this borrowing arguably could be attributed to social programs extended to the population like as you mention overly generous pension plans.
 
DarthTom said:
Robert Maxwell said:
In which topic would you like to get schooled next, Tom?
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According to the Economist public borrowing has a lot to do with their problems. A lot of this borrowing arguably could be attributed to social programs extended to the population like as you mention overly generous pension plans.
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Borrowing which would not have been necessary if so many people and businesses weren't cheating on their taxes.
 
DarthTom said:
Robert Maxwell said:
Borrowing which would not have been necessary if so many people and businesses weren't cheating on their taxes.
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No wonder so many people are cheating on their taxes. According to this website anyone earning more than $75K in Euros is losing 40% to taxes

If Obama tried such a thing on the middle class in this country he'd be lynched. ;)
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In Europe we get all that social security stuff in return, you know. We don't really mind that much.

I know, you probably never heard about stuff like that.
 
DarthTom said:
Robert Maxwell said:
Borrowing which would not have been necessary if so many people and businesses weren't cheating on their taxes.
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No wonder so many people are cheating on their taxes. According to this website anyone earning more than $75K in Euros is losing 40% to taxes

If Obama tried such a thing on the middle class in this country he'd be lynched. ;)
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What percentage of people do you think are earning $75k in euros in greece?

Could you do some basic research in future? Every point you raise makes it seem like you don't really understand what you are talking about or the social-political systems that unpin the countries in the European Union.
 
Count Zero said:
You do realise that people only pay 40% on the amount of money over 75,000 € they make, right? The maximum in the USA is 35% which is rather low but not that much lower than the Greek maximum rate. In Germany, it's 45% and in other European countries it's even higher.
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Regardless of corruption at the heart of this still seems to be the Greek Government's pechant for borrowing and for the populace being unwilling to face reality and pay for the benefits they are used to.

greekbonds.gif


Economist
The planned cuts to the public-sector wage bill look small when set against such a large budget deficit. They also look timid when compared with the much bolder action taken in Ireland, another cash-strapped euro member. In December the Irish government announced big reductions in civil servants’ pay, only months after it had introduced a “pension levy” that cut public-sector wages by 7%. Its courage has been rewarded with lower borrowing costs
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JoeZhang said:
What percentage of people do you think are earning $75k in euros in greece?

Could you do some basic research in future? Every point you raise makes it seem like you don't really understand what you are talking about or the social-political systems that unpin the countries in the European Union.
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I was being kind of tongue and cheek man - hence the winky emitcon.

In any case their marginal tax rates obfuscates the point that the Greece cannot afford the social programs they currently have and population doesn't seem to want to pay taxes to keep them and the solution apparently to that dilemma to to cut off the power to the vast majority of people who have zero control of this. :wtf:
 
Greece is not so much a failure of socialism as a failure of politics and fiscal prudence.Anybody with any sort of clue wouldhave judged Greece as unsuitable for the Euro/single currency project.Anybody that is except the Eu parliament,commission and the ECB(European central bank).
The rush to implement this single currency in such a diverse set of economies has now landed us in this crisis.Plainly the Euro as it now stands is unworkable....and for us European citizens the future is very scary indeed.

It must also be said that the greatest exposure to Greek debt is held by the banking giants of Germany,France and the UK.(food for thought for Frau Merkel,Sarcozy and Cameron)
 
flandry84 said:
Greece is not so much a failure of socialism as a failure of politics and fiscal prudence.
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Aren't they intertwined? The population has to be willing to pay for the services the are getting for the social contract to work - correct?


Anybody with any sort of clue wouldhave judged Greece as unsuitable for the Euro/single currency project.Anybody that is except the Eu parliament,commission and the ECB(European central bank).
The rush to implement this single currency in such a diverse set of economies has now landed us in this crisis.Plainly the Euro as it now stands is unworkable....and for us European citizens the future is very scary indeed.

It must also be said that the greatest exposure to Greek debt is held by the banking giants of Germany,France and the UK.(food for thought for Frau Merkel,Sarcozy and Cameron)
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As I understand it before entering the Euro, Greece solved its fiscal problems by printing money. As a part of the EU and with the Euro that could happen no more.
 
Sweden is just as socialist as Greece, and we've haven't crashed through the floor. Greece's problem is with spending far more than it has, and then not being ready to take the consequences. It could happen just as easily in less socialist country.
 
DarthTom said:
flandry84 said:
Greece is not so much a failure of socialism as a failure of politics and fiscal prudence.
Click to expand...

Aren't they intertwined? The population has to be willing to pay for the services the are getting for the social contract to work - correct?


Anybody with any sort of clue wouldhave judged Greece as unsuitable for the Euro/single currency project.Anybody that is except the Eu parliament,commission and the ECB(European central bank).
The rush to implement this single currency in such a diverse set of economies has now landed us in this crisis.Plainly the Euro as it now stands is unworkable....and for us European citizens the future is very scary indeed.

It must also be said that the greatest exposure to Greek debt is held by the banking giants of Germany,France and the UK.(food for thought for Frau Merkel,Sarcozy and Cameron)
Click to expand...
As I understand it before entering the Euro, Greece solved its fiscal problems by printing money. As a part of the EU and with the Euro that could happen no more.
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They deflated their currency (A trick used by many countries (Italy has done it several times, Sweden did it in the 90's, for example) to make their exports more competive, but basically that means printing money.
 
The EU did not cause it directly, but the EU is worsening the situation. If they would allow Greece to default, then the people who caused the crisis would lose their money. Sure, Greece wouldn't be in good shape after a default, but it would be far better than constant bail-outs, which evidently do not work.
And the EU is against a default, because it would cause a domino effect through the rest of the 'PIGS' countries, and inevitably lead to the collapse of the Euro and the EU.
I'm just one of those people who thinks Europe is better off without the EU. (And I've got many arguments supporting that, but here is obviously not the place for that)
 
The EU did not cause it directly, but the EU is worsening the situation. If they would allow Greece to default, then the people who caused the crisis would lose their money. Sure, Greece wouldn't be in good shape after a default, but it would be far better than constant bail-outs, which evidently do not work.
And the EU is against a default, because it would cause a domino effect through the rest of the 'PIGS' countries, and inevitably lead to the collapse of the Euro and the EU.
I'm just one of those people who thinks Europe is better off without the EU. (And I've got many arguments supporting that, but here is obviously not the place for that)
 
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