Double post (sorry)
Is Greece an example of the failure of Socialism?
- Thread starter DarthTom
- Start date
Before you all shed tears for the Greeks here's something to consider:
- pensions for state employees can get as high as 97% of the salary once received
- the government is corrupt and nepotism has spread through the entire system
- Greece has a huge problem with tax evasion
- Greece has actively lied and misrepresented figures to be accepted into the EU (though that's the EU fault too for not checking the books more closely)
All the EU wants is safe and measurable assurance that Greece is working on the problem effectively and not just paying lip service to appease the EU and continue their lifestyle with borrowed EU billions. They need to make hard cuts and change their system and this is always painful. The "rich" EU countries like Germany didn't get rich because they got lucky, have unique ressources like oil or something.. it was hard work, constant internal fighting about how to spend public money etc and being realistic about what can be done and what can't.
No country is perfect but Greece and its people (especially the people now) are failing to own up to their mistakes and would rather strike to defend a comfortable life that's not sustainable in the long term and because the EU and Germany/France especially are behaving like benevolent dictators for Greece's sake they receive thanks in the form of Swastika flags waved around
- pensions for state employees can get as high as 97% of the salary once received
- the government is corrupt and nepotism has spread through the entire system
- Greece has a huge problem with tax evasion
- Greece has actively lied and misrepresented figures to be accepted into the EU (though that's the EU fault too for not checking the books more closely)
All the EU wants is safe and measurable assurance that Greece is working on the problem effectively and not just paying lip service to appease the EU and continue their lifestyle with borrowed EU billions. They need to make hard cuts and change their system and this is always painful. The "rich" EU countries like Germany didn't get rich because they got lucky, have unique ressources like oil or something.. it was hard work, constant internal fighting about how to spend public money etc and being realistic about what can be done and what can't.
No country is perfect but Greece and its people (especially the people now) are failing to own up to their mistakes and would rather strike to defend a comfortable life that's not sustainable in the long term and because the EU and Germany/France especially are behaving like benevolent dictators for Greece's sake they receive thanks in the form of Swastika flags waved around
Well, in the case of our home country, Germany, it could be argued that we only got rich because a lot of people gave up their claims on our debts throughout the 20th century, especially after WWII. The USA specifically let us default on the debts the Weimar Republic amassed to pay for reparations. And as far as reparations for WWII are concerned, we got off very lightly. While the countries we squeezed out financially during our occupation got nothing. Greece is one of those countries. I think the tone the debate has taken on here, with Merkel sort of implying Greeks, Spaniards and Portugese were lazy among other things, isn't helping matters. I do understand the frustration of the Greeks.
Count Zero, admit it. You read that interview on Spiegel Online today, too.
I know I did.
Yes. 
Everything I know I learned from Spiegel Online. (Oh God, that would be horrible). I thought it was an interesting persepctive because it's something people aren't generally aware of.
But I already knew we never paid reparations to Greece. It's been a sore point there ever since.
Everything I know I learned from Spiegel Online. (Oh God, that would be horrible). I thought it was an interesting persepctive because it's something people aren't generally aware of.But I already knew we never paid reparations to Greece. It's been a sore point there ever since.
Not entirely correct.. during Chancellor Adenauer's time 116 million Deutsche Mark were paid and it was written and signed by both parties (Greek and German) that this was it.. no further claims and all reparations were settled.
Granted.. this sum was not to pay for damages to Greece itself but for those who suffered under german occupation not the real reparation money agreed to in 1946 which was a percentage of the whole sum to which Greece was entitled. Given the beginning Cold War the West (or rather the allied nations under the US and Britain) agreed to postpone any payments to prop up Germany as quickly as possible as a wall against communism and so Greece got shafted (as well as other smaller nations).
That it's being brought up by Greece (or rather a few fringe politicial elements) is just a very weak and lame attempt at placing blame and to vent frustrations.
Granted.. this sum was not to pay for damages to Greece itself but for those who suffered under german occupation not the real reparation money agreed to in 1946 which was a percentage of the whole sum to which Greece was entitled. Given the beginning Cold War the West (or rather the allied nations under the US and Britain) agreed to postpone any payments to prop up Germany as quickly as possible as a wall against communism and so Greece got shafted (as well as other smaller nations).
That it's being brought up by Greece (or rather a few fringe politicial elements) is just a very weak and lame attempt at placing blame and to vent frustrations.
The EU didn't cause this crisis, but the eurozone and its institutions are one of the major contributing factors. Squabbling between European nations is also hampering efforts to actually fix the problem.
This has little to do with contagion to other struggling eurozone countries, if Greece defaults it will strike right into the heart of the problem; the big banks in countries like France, Germany and the UK that lent Greece the money. Some of those banks are still struggling in the aftermath of the 2008 crisis and if one of those were to fail then we'd risk an even worse situation right across the globe than we had three years ago.
There is also a fear that if Greece is seen to default on its loans, that will make it harder for Ireland and Portugal to return to the markets, but we may not be able to do that anyway. Many economists in Ireland are of the opinion that we're just going to default several years from now as the whole program is based on economic growth projections that we're already failing to meet.
You're wrong. The EU needs to be improved, including further integration in some areas, but to get rid of it entirely would be a disaster for this continent.
No. The Soviet Union, Albania, Cambodia, Romania, East Germany. They are examples of socialism's failure.
Please do not make such assumptions. I am an almost 30 year old Greek and have never had a "comfortable" life. Having a MSc degree earns me around 600 euros a month (and I am one of the lucky ones that have a job).No country is perfect but Greece and its people (especially the people now) are failing to own up to their mistakes and would rather strike to defend a comfortable life that's not sustainable in the long term and because the EU and Germany/France especially are behaving like benevolent dictators for Greece's sake they receive thanks in the form of Swastika flags waved around
Maybe some people that are now in their 60s were lucky because politicians traded money for votes, but oversimplifying everything and basically saying that Greeks go on a strike because they don't get tons of money as they used to is just wrong.
No one acts out of their good hearts. Greece is an easy victim right now that is forced to sell companies and property at very low prices. None of the measures that have been taken are in the right direction. The situation today is much worse than a year ago, even if people gave up a considerable amount of their salaries and are paying all sorts of extra taxes. That is why people are on a strike.
However, back to the OP, Greece is not an example of Socialism failure, it's an example of how banks rule this world instead of governments.
Yes.
Yeah, agreed. I also thought it's way overdue for the media to stop blaming Greece for everything.
The public opinion and its attitude is a bit ridiculous at the moment. We were happy to award Greece with big loans just so they could buy our stuff since we're so export-dependent and completely rely on the whole word spending money on buying German products.
Parts of the German public have always exhibited great arrogance and ignorance towards what they used to call the "Club Med" of Europe (the mediterranean countries). That has always annoyed the hell out of me. It's easy to blame the others and not understand your own shortcomings and role in the complex system of international economics.
And damn, could the chancelorette make any more of a fool of herself on the European stage? I understand that while helping Greece we also have to take a firm stance but what she's doing isn't helping Europe.
On the other hand part of the Greek protests annoy me as well. I have sympathy for the Greek people and their situation but those politicians that ruined Greece were elected, you know. Greece can't only blame the EU or other countries for their current situation. I've seen Greek protesters who put a swastika on EU flags which is very, very stupid, ignorant, offensive and completely out of order.
The rest of Europe should try and help Greece sort things out without the condescending tone that's coming out of Berlin currently. The interdependencies among Europe are so complex that Greece's case cannot be seen as isolated. We can't only blame Greece for it even though they definitely screwed up for decades in certain policy areas. But I think part of Greece's population still hasn't understood what this is all about (well, like I said that applies to the German public, too).
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You seem to be partially self-identifying with Germany. I'd be careful with that, if I were you. That way lies constant second-guessing, worrying about things you can't change anyway and believing drinking yourself into a coma is a sign of culture. 
Being condescending, arrogant know-it-alls is part of our national character, unfortunately. I'm sorry but it seems that will never go away. I suggest everyone else just doesn't take it too seriously.
Back on topic, while some of the stuff mentioned in the thread probably aggravated the problem, I think it's wrong to think that Greece is a special case. Some of its problems are very similar to those of other European nations, like high unemployment or underemployment among young people despite good education. Naira emntioned it and it's also a massive problem in Spain and to a lesser degree even in France.
Being condescending, arrogant know-it-alls is part of our national character, unfortunately. I'm sorry but it seems that will never go away. I suggest everyone else just doesn't take it too seriously.
Back on topic, while some of the stuff mentioned in the thread probably aggravated the problem, I think it's wrong to think that Greece is a special case. Some of its problems are very similar to those of other European nations, like high unemployment or underemployment among young people despite good education. Naira emntioned it and it's also a massive problem in Spain and to a lesser degree even in France.
Well, I do also have German citizenship.
I still remember Roland Koch's crypto-nationalist anti-double-citizenship initiative and having entertaining debates with confused, right-wing people during the election campaigns.Me: "I hold double citizenship."
They: "But...but...but... you can't!!! You have to DECIDE!"
Me: "Uh, why? I can't. I don't feel any more German than Italian or vice versa. It's an impossible decision."
They: "But...but...but... it's about... umm... blood!!!"
Me: "No, it's not. It's about identity. And identity is complex and not simple. It's a construct. People with double citizenship aren't just one or the other. They're both. Psychology and identity aren't as simple as CDU would like them to be."
They: "But...but..but..."
I'd be careful with that, if I were you. That way lies constant second-guessing, worrying about things you can't change anyway and believing drinking yourself into a coma is a sign of culture.
Germany has a couple of redeeming qualities, though.
Well, I agree but it's a bit much to ask of Greek people at the moment, don't you think?
Oh, definitely. Youth unemployment has been a consistent, structural problem in France for decades. Public debt has been a problem for Belgium, Italy and even Germany for years. Greece was hit hardest because it was the weakest link.
I meant it in a general way. The Greeks, of course, have little choice right now than to take it seriously. Which sucks. But they shouldn't take it personally. Anything else won't be healthy.
I feel for you, I do. It's a shitty situation. But what's the alternative? Your country can default and try to walk away, but then where will they get the money to cover the deficit? Whether Greece gets the money from the EU/IMF or from the markets, cuts need to be made and taxes need to be raised, protesting against these changes isn't going to make them any less inevitable, sadly.
I don't like my country being a part of this EU/IMF "rescue" deal either, and I deeply resent us being charged what I consider to be a punitive interest rate for money that we have to put into our banks so that they can give the money back to European banks. But I still accept the reality that we have to make these cuts in order to get rid of the deficit regardless of whether we accept the EU/IMF package or not. And I absolutely intend to pay back every last cent of our sovereign debt because that is ours to pay back (but I have no desire to pay off the debts of formerly private institutions that fucked themselves up).
Oh dear lord, I think I'm German!You seem to be partially self-identifying with Germany. I'd be careful with that, if I were you. That way lies constant second-guessing, worrying about things you can't change anyway and believing drinking yourself into a coma is a sign of culture.
Oh dear lord, I think I'm German!You seem to be partially self-identifying with Germany. I'd be careful with that, if I were you. That way lies constant second-guessing, worrying about things you can't change anyway and believing drinking yourself into a coma is a sign of culture.
Let's celebrate our common ideals by drinking ourselves into a coma. At least we'll forget this stupid crisis for a while.
Greece is not alone in having to implent Austerity packages with the EU, most EU countires have to various degrees implement them. Yes Greece might be having to implement tighter measures than other EU countries. Part of this will be down to how they ran their country and part down to the €, unfortunantly within the eurozone countries their are a vareity of countires with differing needs as to the interest rate, if it is wrong for your country then you could find yourself in deeper trouble than most. But all this started because of the finiacial collapose, but then again a lot of countries went on a spend, spend spree during the boom times instead of putting aside some for when the rainy day came.
Plus of course the public sector could have been bigger than the private sector which basic econmics will say is unsustainable. As the public sector is paid out of taxes
the private secotr has to pay in more or at the very least equal in taxes that the government spends on the public sector.
As for an earlier point that someone raised re: strikes, yes the private sector does strike, but it strikes far less frequently than the public sector. When the public sector strikes it can place an enormous amount of strain on the private sector.
Think about it teachers strike, which can mean that parents employed by the private sector can't work, putting more strain on the private sector.
Plus of course the public sector could have been bigger than the private sector which basic econmics will say is unsustainable. As the public sector is paid out of taxes
the private secotr has to pay in more or at the very least equal in taxes that the government spends on the public sector.
As for an earlier point that someone raised re: strikes, yes the private sector does strike, but it strikes far less frequently than the public sector. When the public sector strikes it can place an enormous amount of strain on the private sector.
Think about it teachers strike, which can mean that parents employed by the private sector can't work, putting more strain on the private sector.
I agree. And I don't mind paying. What I mind is that people who were allowed by the system to avoid paying (taxes etc.) are still allowed to do so while those who can't avoid paying (and are actually those who earn the least) are the only ones targeted by most measures
.Being in Greece, I get the feeling that noone (our government, EU and USA alike) actually wants to correct the current system. I get the feeling that everything is about selling public property in a way that will benefit the buyers and not Greece. And this is disappointing.
But I guess I am starting a different thread here, so I'll try not to hijack this one further.
Sounds like a plan!
Let's celebrate our common ideals by drinking ourselves into a coma. At least we'll forget this stupid crisis for a while.
But I'm afraid that I'm tapped for cash at the moment, so you're buying. There's definitely a certain amount of opportunism involved with these bailouts. Right now, Ireland is renegotiating our interest rate with Europe and it's being held up because the French government is insisting on us increasing our corporation tax. This has nothing to do with trying to help us, the French government has never liked our low corporation tax and they're using this as an opportunity to make us less competitive. I'd complain about it more, but the sad truth is that it would only save us a couple of hundred million anyway, what we really need is to be allowed to default on a couple of billion of the bank debt.
But The ECB wont let that happen.
Sounds like a plan!
Let's celebrate our common ideals by drinking ourselves into a coma. At least we'll forget this stupid crisis for a while.
Hey, man, so am I. Let's find a shady banker and borrow some money for our night out. We can pay it back some time later. It's the European way.
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Sounds like a plan!
Let's celebrate our common ideals by drinking ourselves into a coma. At least we'll forget this stupid crisis for a while.
Hey, man, so am I. Let's find a shady banker and borrow some money for our night out. We can pay it back some time later. It's the European way.
Yeah, an American would also get some loaned money for a house and party there.