Revisiting Star Trek TOS/TAS...

[evilnate]

That's only if you consider, say, a bunch of ten year-olds running around a dining room table while throwing cutlery all over the place "entertaining", while the adults, meanwhile, having a quiet, dignified, and mature conversation around the dinner table is "boring." Sure, TOS, even when terribly written and conceived, seems more "entertaining" because it is colourful and loud and brash and entirely juvenile (when it's bad, I mean.) TNG is quieter, less colourful, less bombastic, more sedate, and more thoughtful - and that may, to some, seem boring, I suppose.

Hell, I'm 35 years old, and I'd rather play with the kids than have boring "adult" conversation!

Maybe I should have said "stately and sedate". Don't get me wrong, I don't mind "stately"...at times. Just a couple of days ago, I re-watched TNG's "The Outcast", and I was thinking that it was a better episode than I remembered. However, sometimes I want my entertainment to be purely entertaining, an escape. I want action and adventure, and TOS, even at it's worst, usually provides that. That's what I appreciate about it the most. It's why it's my favorite, and not that I want to speak for him, it's why I think that Warped9 perfers TOS season 3 over any TNG season.

 

[BillJ]

But I agree with Rama's sentiment - if your numbers are claiming that Season 3 of TOS is superior to, say, Season 3 or 4 (or 6) of TNG, then your numbers are, in fact, lying. TOS season 3 is a huge, huge letdown after the first two mostly fantastic seasons, except for a handful of great episodes. When it's bad, it's really, really bad, while, again, still seeming very "entertaining" - 'cause, again, of all those colours and lights and nifty sounds and overacting and fist fights and silly costumes and girls in sexy short skirts and things. It always seems like a lot of cool stuff is happening, though, sure, even when the writing feels like it was written by a 6 year-old.

Like RAMA you only seem able to make a point by using insults. Yet you dismiss TOS as juvenile. I'm sure you're missing the irony there.

God forbid someone actually watch entertainment to be entertained.

 

[Warped9]

I found Season 3 to have four excellent rated episodes and eight good rated episodes. That is 12 out of 24 which is 50% Good-Excellent episodes. I didn't find any season of TNG that matched that. Nowhere did I say TOS' Season 3 had 50% excellent episodes.

But it boils down to that half of Season 3 is at least good in my opinion. And that flies in the face of the "accepted wisdom" or perception that most of the season is shit.

If someone doesn't like their assumptions challenged then that's their problem and not mine.

Some here have followed my revisit as well as my revisit of TNG. While there were some disagreements I didn't encounter a great deal of dissent with what I found. But perhaps someone wasn't paying attention.

The simple fact is that many people have had this idea that TNG is inherently superior because it ran longer, had better production values, had Patrick Stewart and was more cerebral. The one thing TNG never was was being more cerebral. All it really had was Patrick Stewart and not having to contend with network censors and expectations ratings wise. It was also more touchy-feely, was contemporary and inclined towards more family type drama.

I rated the episodes in both series as I experienced them, and I hadn't seen either series in quite some time. No one seemed to have much issue or disagreement while I was going through the series on an episode by episode basis. But when the final tally comes in now some are upset because it contradicts their expectations and long held assumptions.

And here is another thing. While Season 3 may be a step down from the previous two seasons I still found it more enjoyable overall (at least half of it) than any season of contemporary Trek. I didn't say I didn't enjoy some seasons of TNG well enough, but they still didn't deliver quite as much as TOS. Close, but not quite.

 

[Ubik]

But I agree with Rama's sentiment - if your numbers are claiming that Season 3 of TOS is superior to, say, Season 3 or 4 (or 6) of TNG, then your numbers are, in fact, lying. TOS season 3 is a huge, huge letdown after the first two mostly fantastic seasons, except for a handful of great episodes. When it's bad, it's really, really bad, while, again, still seeming very "entertaining" - 'cause, again, of all those colours and lights and nifty sounds and overacting and fist fights and silly costumes and girls in sexy short skirts and things. It always seems like a lot of cool stuff is happening, though, sure, even when the writing feels like it was written by a 6 year-old.

Like RAMA you only seem able to make a point by using insults. Yet you dismiss TOS as juvenile. I'm sure you're missing the irony there.

God forbid someone actually watch entertainment to be entertained.

What insults? Who did I insult? Unless you're talking about my insults toward....the writing.....of a show. I believe that's called "criticism." What or who else did I insult? I honestly don't even know what you're talking about. Also, I love TOS. It's one of my favourite shows. I dismissed nothing. Its first two seasons have some of the best televised science fiction ever produced. Seriously.....did you read someone else's post, and then accidentally respond to mine?

 

[Warped9]

A lot of folks like to think TNG was a smarter and more thoughtful series than TOS. No, it wasn't. The other thing TNG wasn't is it wasn't as visionary. Indeed TNG wouldn't have existed if TOS hadn't paved the way and established so much.

Because TNG was generally more sedate many folks think it was more adult oriented. Not in the least. It often defined itself more by what it wasn't than by what it was.

And if someone thinks I'm lying even after following these threads then just go back through the threads and tally the results and you'll arrive at the same numbers I did. If you want to challenge my findings then revisit both series episode by episode as I did and post your results.

I didn't review these episodes by memory. I sat and watched each one of them, all 79 TOS and 178 TNG episodes, right through.

 

[BillJ]

Seriously.....did you read someone else's post, and then accidentally respond to mine?

"Written by six year olds", sounds like an insult to me.

 

[Ubik]

A lot of folks like to think TNG was a smarter and more thoughtful series than TOS. No, it wasn't. The other thing TNG wasn't is it wasn't as visionary. Indeed TNG wouldn't have existed if TOS hadn't paved the way and established so much.

Because TNG was generally more sedate many folks think it was more adult oriented. Not in the least. It often defined itself more by what it wasn't than by what it was.

On that, my friend, we'll have to agree to disagree. I too have rewatched TNG recently, with my wife who had never seen it before, and her reaction was that it was superior to TOS. She found it more complex, and more subtle, and more serious, and more adult, and more realistic. She found the acting and the writing superior. And this is someone who is an avid fan of TOS!

I do indeed love TOS, and I think no one in TNG other than Picard has the amazing characterization of the Kirk-Spock-Bones trio, but I tend to agree with my wife's assessment of the shows. I find a lot of TOS simplistic in its morality, juvenile in its approach to sex and violence, sexist, dogmatic, silly, repetitive, and over-the-top. Much of that is due to outside factors, I know, but that doesn't alter the final product. Very few of those episodes would pass muster as serious dramatic television in the 21st century. Of course, they weren't designed to be serious dramatic television - they were designed to be fun action-adventures. On that level, they're among the best of their genre. But it cannot be compared to a show designed to be serious adult drama, which is what TNG, after an iffy two years, finally settled itself into.

Of course, accusations of repetitiveness and blandness can be launched quite legitimately at TNG. Sure. But a mediocre TNG episode is an episode of bland adult drama, instead of a ludicrous over-the-top action-adventure, which is what a bad TOS episode is. As a matter of taste, I'd rather watch mediocre adult drama than silly action-adventure, which is why I prefer TNG overall as a television series.

 

[Ubik]

Seriously.....did you read someone else's post, and then accidentally respond to mine?

"Written by six year olds", sounds like an insult to me.

Written BY six year olds, not FOR six year olds. Isn't that just a criticism of the writers of the show? I'm not insulting anyone on this board, or any fans of the show.

Anyway, forget it. I just thought your initial reaction to my post was a bit bizarre. And then, your going on about me "dismissing" a show that I happen to love...it was just weird, that's all. Forget it.

 

[BillJ]

On that, my friend, we'll have to agree to disagree. I too have rewatched TNG recently, with my wife who had never seen it before, and her reaction was that it was superior to TOS. She found it more complex, and more subtle, and more serious, and more adult, and more realistic. She found the acting and the writing superior. And this is someone who is an avid fan of TOS!

My wife ended up being the exact opposite. Grew up with TNG but now finds TOS more compelling.

 

[Warped9]

I have never found TNG smarter or more adult oriented or more cerebral than TOS---not in the slightest. And I will put TOS' best against TNG's best anytime.

One thing I did think TOS excelled at better than TNG: TOS generally assumed the viewer understood subtext as opposed to TNG which seemed to often felt compelled to spell things out for the viewer because they thought the viewer wouldn't get it otherwise.

What I find truly laughable here is that some seem really put off that someone else (in this case, me) could actually like third season TOS better than TNG. Certainly not all of Season 3 was a picnic, but I found easily half of it at least good. I never found more than about forty-two percent of a TNG season to be at least good.

But let's break it down more.

***** Excellent
TNG Season 1 = 0% (0 episodes) of 26 episodes
TNG Season 2 = 13.6% (3 episodes) of 22 episodes
TNG Season 3 = 19.2% (5 episodes) of 26 episodes
TNG Season 4 = 3.8% (1 episodes) of 26 episodes
TNG Season 5 = 7.6% (2 episodes) of 26 episodes
TNG Season 6 = 0% (0 episodes) of 26 episodes
TNG Season 7 = 11.5% (3 episodes) of 26 episodes
TOS Season 1 = 55.1% (16 episodes) of 29 episodes
TOS Season 2 = 23% (6 episodes) of 26 episodes
TOS Season 3 = 16.6% (4 episodes) of 24 episodes

**** Good
TNG Season 1 = 15.3% (4 episodes) of 26 episodes
TNG Season 2 = 27.2% (6 episodes) of 22 episodes
TNG Season 3 = 23% (6 episodes) of 26 episodes
TNG Season 4 = 38.4% (10 episodes) of 26 episodes
TNG Season 5 = 26.9% (7 episodes) of 26 episodes
TNG Season 6 = 30.7% (8 episodes) of 26 episodes
TNG Season 7 = 3.8% (1 episode) of 26 episodes
TOS Season 1 = 27.5% (8 episodes) of 29 episodes
TOS Season 2 = 38.4% (10 episodes) of 26 episodes
TOS Season 3 = 33.3% (8 episodes) of 24 episodes

Now add them together.

Good to Excellent
TNG Season 1 = 15.3% (4 episodes) of 26 episodes
TNG Season 2 = 40.9% (9 episodes) of 22 episodes
TNG Season 3 = 42.3% (11 episodes) of 26 episodes
TNG Season 4 = 42.3% (11 episodes) of 26 episodes
TNG Season 5 = 34.6% (9 episodes) of 26 episodes
TNG Season 6 = 30.7% (8 episodes) of 26 episodes
TNG Season 7 = 15.3% (4 episodes) of 26 episodes
TOS Season 1 = 82.7% (24 episodes) of 29 episodes
TOS Season 2 = 61.5% (16 episodes) of 26 episodes
TOS Season 3 = 50% (12 episodes) of 24 episodes

 

[scotpens]

. . . One thing I did think TOS excelled at better than TNG: TOS generally assumed the viewer understood subtext as opposed to TNG which seemed to often felt compelled to spell things out for the viewer because they thought the viewer wouldn't get it otherwise.

Can anyone say “technobabble”?

It’s a bit ironic that some viewers today would characterize Trek TOS as “childish.” When the show premiered on NBC, the network touted it as “science fiction for adults.” Meaning that it wasn’t another Lost in Space.

And “sexism” this, “sexism” that — for Pete’s sake, give it a rest. In 1966, the only women serving aboard Navy vessels were nurses on hospital ships. Just having a co-ed crew on the Enterprise was advanced thinking for the time. Society has changed a lot since then, and you can’t judge the portrayal of women in a 45-year-old TV program by the yardstick of modern sensibilities.

. . . And yes, when a TNG episode is mediocre, it doesn't have the crazy TOS incidental score to keep us entertained, or William Shatner's awesome flying kicks, or all those cute girls wearing practically nothing - agreed.

“Crazy”? Trek TOS had wonderful incidental music, written by some of the top composers in Hollywood. As I’ve pointed out previously, in the third season, the music frequently outshone the scripts and the acting.

The music in TNG and subsequent Trek shows is aural wallpaper.

 

[Warped9]

Back in 1973 when I learned that we would get new Star Trek yet in the form of an animated series I was pretty juiced about it. By that time I had seen every episode of the original series numerous times, and while I loved it I was eager for more.

In 1973 I was 14 years old and could still get into animated shows on television. I admit that I did have some reservations when I understood ST-TAS would be aired on Saturday mornings, but I was still hoping it could be good nonetheless.

Yes, it was a mixed bag even then with it being the only other Star Trek available (other than published episode adaptations and original novels), but nonetheless it was exciting. A bit later I eagerly collected the Alan Dean Foster adaptations of the animated episodes. ADF's adaptations fleshed out the half-hour stories and somehow made them feel more real, more like live-action Star Trek.

After a few runs TAS basically disappeared and I didn't see it again until decades later when Teletoon began limited syndication of the series again. But I missed many of them and it wasn't until the series was released in a dvd box set some years ago that I finally got to see them all again.

Well it's been sometime and I haven't watched any TAS since then. And so like TNG and even TOS this will be a revisit of a show I haven't seen in quite some time.


One of the things I remember is that quite a bit of TAS seemed more adult like than pretty much anything else on Saturday morning television back in the day. I also recall that when I got the dvd set I found not much bloom had come off the rose. Yes, by today's standards the animation can be somewhat stiff and the stories can feel abbreviated or edited, but some of those episodes still worked pretty well. I've always liked some of the new varieties of ship designs as well as some pretty damned cool looking aliens.

Like the series I revisited previously I want to watch TAS in production order. I will also keep in mind that this is quite like watching a live-action episode and so some consideration may have to be given to that. Also, while I'll assess the episodes as they are I also want to consider how ell they fit into what TOS had established and how well they might work if the stories had been done live-action.

Also, since there are twenty-two episodes I'll revisit the whole series as if it were one season.

So, stand by...


Production order:
“More Tribbles, More Troubles”
“The Infinite Vulcan”
“Yesteryear”
“Beyond The Farthest Star”
“The Survivor”
“The Lorelei Signal”
“One Of Our Planets Is Missing”
“Mudd’s Passion”
“The Magicks Of Megas-Tu”
“Time Trap”
“Slaver Weapon”
“The Ambergris Element”
“Jihad”
“The Terratin Incident”
“The Eye Of The Beholder”
“Once Upon A Planet”
“BEM”
“Albatross”
“The Pirates Of Orion”
“Practical Joker”
“How Sharper Than A Serpent’s Tooth”
“The Counter-Clock Incident”

 

[Noname Given]

I found Season 3 to have four excellent rated episodes and eight good rated episodes. That is 12 out of 24 which is 50% Good-Excellent episodes. I didn't find any season of TNG that matched that. Nowhere did I say TOS' Season 3 had 50% excellent episodes.

But it boils down to that half of Season 3 is at least good in my opinion. And that flies in the face of the "accepted wisdom" or perception that most of the season is shit.

But honestly, with regard to TOS (and TOS fans back in the day) - you're taking the "Season 3 is shit." comment out of context as, when I was talking about Season 3 being shit/the worst - I was usually meaning "When compared to the first two seasons of TOS." - and honestly, your personal TOS ratings data:

TOS Season 1 = 82.7% (24 episodes)
TOS Season 2 = 61.5% (16 episodes)
TOS Season 3 = 50% (12 episodes)

Still backs that statement up in the above context.

 

[Warped9]

Half the season is at least good. If you include another six episodes that are basically inoffensively watchable then that means three-quarters of the season is acceptable to good to excellent. That's nothing to sneer at.

And when I rated the episodes I used the same criteria as I had during the first two seasons. An excellent or good third season episode isn't rated such in context of just against other episodes of the season. It's rated in context of what had preceded it in the previous seasons.

There is no question there aren't as many good episodes as they're were in previous seasons, but the issue is how well does the season do even with this slide taken into consideration.

It boils down to I don't think the season as a whole is as bad as many make it out to be. And this played out much the same when I was reviewing Seasons 1 and 2 of TNG. So many folks around here proclaim that the bulk of those seasons just isn't worth spending time on. And yet I found quite a bit of acceptable materiel in those seasons such that I don't think they're as bad as so many people like to claim.

And note that I, too, had less than rosy memories of many TNG episodes. Many came off better than I remembered and a few were not as good as I remembered. Ditto with TOS particularly during its third season.

Also, if third season TOS is bad because only fifty percent of the episodes are good to excellent, then what does it say of TNG's vaunted third and fourth seasons where no more than forty-two percent of the episodes were good to excellent?

I also find it quite telling that while TNG produced 178 episodes over a seven year run it only produced 56 good to excellent episodes as opposed to TOS' 52 such episodes. All that extra time and money and resources and TNG could hardly do any better with such a negligible difference.

 

[Lord Garth]

TOS couldn't have survived in syndication if the entire third season was completely terrible. The "rule of thirds" only works if the bad episodes are spread out. If it was one long continuous five-week chunk of bad episodes, potential fans watching the series for the first time in syndication would've tuned out in 1970.

 

[Warped9]

Let me add something else. In my view a five-star rated TNG episode isn't better than a five-star rated TOS episode. And neither is the reverse true. It means they're both excellent even if for slightly different reasons. Same with a four-star rated episode.

 

[Kirkman1987]

I also prefer TOS season 3 over any season of TNG. My reasons are largely a matter of personal taste. I believe that TOS, even in the third season, was a very special television program that will never be quite replicated again.

 

[Warped9]

I prefer TOS' overall ambience, its characters, its setting and its general mindset. I much prefer how it's written in general. To be sure I've quite liked particular episodes of TNG, but as good as TNG could be it just doesn't have the same feel.

I also have to say that in general I think TNG was terrible at juggling A and B plotlines. It also didn't seem to do bottle shows well either.

In terms of characters? I like all of TOS characters with Chekov perhaps the least. And yet that is partially due to how the character was handled. I like the TNG characters but for Troi and Wesley. Yet beyond Picard, Data and Worf the rest really had little appeal. It wasn't that there was anything wrong about them, but rather there was little of anything distinguishing about them either. TOS' secondary characters left me interested to see more of them. TNG's secondary characters were mostly just there. Of course much of that has to do with having showed us aspects of those characters off-duty lives and I found it usually wanting. When TOS showed us other aspects of the characters it was usually tied to what was going on in the story rather than just being crammed in there to establish "character."

There are other things, too. TNG has the reputation of being laden with technobabble. My recent revisit found less technobabble than I remembered, but it's still present and quite thick occasionally. TOS also has it's perceived cliches and yet in this revisit I can see many if not the majority of those are grossly exaggerated.

One could go on and on into evermore minor things, but it boils down to much preferring the overall content and substance of one show over another.

 

[Ubik]

I prefer TOS' overall ambience, its characters, its setting and its general mindset. I much prefer how it's written in general. To be sure I've quite liked particular episodes of TNG, but as good as TNG could be it just doesn't have the same feel.

This is it. I'm glad you said this so succinctly. The reason I prefer TNG and you prefer TOS is this - the kind of "feel" we look for in a show. A preference for a show's "feel" will make someone enjoy the mediocre episodes a lot more than someone who doesn't love the general "feel."

In terms of quality, both shows are probably about equal - with DS9 being a bit better You see only a third great episodes in TNG's 3rd season, I see over 70% - again, because I juast think the "feel" is better. There's no accounting for taste, of course, but I think it's fair to say BOTH shows are among the best science fiction that has ever appeared on television (something that can't be said for Voyager or Enterprise.)

 

[Warped9]

As I have said, "your mileage will vary" depending on your preferences.

I like the overall feel of TNG's first two seasons, particularly Season 2, which allowed me to enjoy some mediocre episodes. But as the series progressed I found myself not being ably to get much of anything out of the mediocre episodes. I felt the series lost some dynamic and lost a level of energy as it progressed. It became more polished in some respects and yet concurrently also more bland. Basically if a TNG episode wasn't excellent or even good in the later seasons then there wasn't much left to enjoy.

The strength of TOS' cast and characters as well as the show's overall ambience managed to make even mediocre, and even some poor, episodes watchable.

But in comparing the two series I focused on the Good-Excellent episodes for sake of comparison.

I think another reason Season 3 of TOS is perceived so poorly is because, in fairness, Season 1 came out of the box so strongly and didn't lose much steam in Season 2. I've encountered very few series that have done the same thing.