TUC Concerns

[balls]

In the past I've posted my concerns about books on the bridge, Spock's overly aggressive mind meld of Valeris and phasers in the galley. After watching TUC again today I have some more concerns. Before we go any further, I have never made a movie in my life, so I don't know how to do it better than the folks that made this movie. Take it for what it's worth.

The crewman Dax scene. Okay, if they think this guy is one of the ones that was able to beam aboard Kronos 1 and kill the Chancellor of the High Command, why not send security to find him immediately instead of waiting for him in his quarters? Why have most of the senior staff waiting for him and no secuirty? Was it so Chekov could have a clever line? Didn't anyone pull his personnel file to see if this guy was close with anyone else? Maybe they could find his accomplice. While reviewing his file they'd know he was from a certain race that wouldn't be able to wear the boots. It seems like they wasted what little time they had.

The galley scene. I'll skip the phaser locker and ask why Uhura and Scotty show up to question why the alarm went off. Don't these guys have more pressing things to do? Is it just to bring our main characters back into a scene together?

The Khitomer scenes. Scotty is busy in engineering dealing with the battle with Chang. When does he have time to change into his regular uniform to beam down to Khitomer?

During the battle, the Enterprise is getting banged up, where's the chief medical officer? On the bridge. He leaves to help Spock with a torpedo. Shouldn't he be in sickbay? I get it: we get to see two of our favorites working together and doing something cool.

Why does the entire bridge crew (who are supposed to be retiring in 3 months) beam down to the conference? Shouldn't Kirk have taken an assault team or security? Heck, in TFF he had a crew that tried to rescue the hostages in Paradise City. You'd think that those guys would have a better shot of protecting the President than Uhura and McCoy. Is it just so we get to see our heroes on the dais?
Furthermore, it would seem that the security for this conference should have been a bit more beefed up. Considering that the main architect of peace conference had already been murdered, you'd think they'd have a security force on hand. Kirk and Co. were able to get to the President pretty easily.

Kirk's explaination to the members of the conference as to what's happened seems a little lacking. Kirk says something about "People are afraid of change..." Okay. If I'm one of the conference attendees, might I be thinking, "Hey, isn't Kirk the one that was convicted of killing Gorkon? Why is he here?" Could Kirk have stated something like, "Madame Chancellor, there was a conspiracy of Federation, Klingon and Romulans that wanted the peace talks to fail. My crew and I exposed them so we could make your father's dreams a reality."? What we got was kind of brief.

I know people love this movie. I'm not trying to change that. I love a number of things about it: Kirk's feelings about Klingons evolving since TSFS. The scenes with Kirk and Spock are great. The cold war analogy. All good stuff. I just wonder if I'm crazy for not getting the above scenes like a lot of people do.

 

[David cgc]

The galley scene. I'll skip the phaser locker and ask why Uhura and Scotty show up to question why the alarm went off. Don't these guys have more pressing things to do? Is it just to bring our main characters back into a scene together?

Well, yes, but Uhura had a reason to be there beyond cinematic convenience. She was already on her way down to talk to Spock about Starfleet Command demanding that the Enterprise come back to Earth. We never found out what Scotty was doing, because Spock interrupted him immediately to ask about the fake engine trouble. He might've been looking for Spock, too, or he might've been in that section for unrelated reasons (part of the search, perhaps), or he just hauled ass up from engineering because when you're the second-highest-ranking person on the ship, things being vaporized with phasers are the sort of thing you should stay on top of.

 

[Warped9]

Keep looking. I'm sure you'll find more stuff.

 

[Oso Blanco]

This is easily the most illogical Trek movie ever made.

 

[ClayHefner]

I got another one: What about using the probe to hit Chang's BOP.
So they have this super sophisticated tech to make stuff invisible and undetectable, but they somehow overlook the possibility that they can be traced by following their fumes?
With a 5 minute manual torpedo refit no less.

It basically means that instead of all these years fighting those dangerous BOP's and losing many ships and lives they should just have asked Uhura and neutralized that threat.

 

[BillJ]

I got another one: What about using the probe to hit Chang's BOP.
So they have this super sophisticated tech to make stuff invisible and undetectable, but they somehow overlook the possibility that they can be traced by following their fumes?
With a 5 minute manual torpedo refit no less.

It basically means that instead of all these years fighting those dangerous BOP's and losing many ships and lives they should just have asked Uhura and neutralized that threat.

I guess they're betting that in the heat of battle that someone is concentrating on 'seeing' it, that they overlook tracing it by its emissions.

 

[Mr Silver]

The crewman Dax scene. Okay, if they think this guy is one of the ones that was able to beam aboard Kronos 1 and kill the Chancellor of the High Command, why not send security to find him immediately instead of waiting for him in his quarters? Why have most of the senior staff waiting for him and no secuirty? Was it so Chekov could have a clever line? Didn't anyone pull his personnel file to see if this guy was close with anyone else? Maybe they could find his accomplice. While reviewing his file they'd know he was from a certain race that wouldn't be able to wear the boots. It seems like they wasted what little time they had.

They found the boots in his locker, decided to catch him unawares. Besides, if he was in on the assasinations, surely he would be checking to see if people suspect him? That covers such stuff as checking to see if people have accessed his personnel file. As for not having security..do you really think one person against the whole senior staff (all of which were probably armed and have extensive combat experience) is going to pose much of a threat?

The galley scene. I'll skip the phaser locker and ask why Uhura and Scotty show up to question why the alarm went off. Don't these guys have more pressing things to do? Is it just to bring our main characters back into a scene together?

Phaser goes off in the galley, where the captain, navigator and helmswoman are all located. Scotty is by default the acting first officer and therefore its part of his reponsibilities, as for Uhura, she was probably concerned and it stands to reason with the absence of so many others from the bridge, she would have been the duty officer.

The Khitomer scenes. Scotty is busy in engineering dealing with the battle with Chang. When does he have time to change into his regular uniform to beam down to Khitomer?

All he has to do is take off his utility jacket and put on the officer's coat, he could have done it on the way to the transporter room.

During the battle, the Enterprise is getting banged up, where's the chief medical officer? On the bridge. He leaves to help Spock with a torpedo. Shouldn't he be in sickbay? I get it: we get to see two of our favorites working together and doing something cool.

Maybe he was stuck on the bridge, turbolifts could have been malfunctioning and its not like he's the only doctor onboard. I'm sure McCoy was one of the few disposable people who could take a trip with Spock to the torpedo room in the heat of battle.

Why does the entire bridge crew (who are supposed to be retiring in 3 months) beam down to the conference? Shouldn't Kirk have taken an assault team or security? Heck, in TFF he had a crew that tried to rescue the hostages in Paradise City. You'd think that those guys would have a better shot of protecting the President than Uhura and McCoy. Is it just so we get to see our heroes on the dais?
Furthermore, it would seem that the security for this conference should have been a bit more beefed up. Considering that the main architect of peace conference had already been murdered, you'd think they'd have a security force on hand. Kirk and Co. were able to get to the President pretty easily.

If a security team came in then there would probably be a misinterpretation from the Klingons ("Oh look its Kirk coming with his team to annihilate us, open fire") but with just his officers subtlely beaming in (loads of Starfleet officers were present) it wasn't much of a big deal. As for security at the conference itself, the location wasn't readily available to people that weren't considered trustworthy, it just so happened that it was an inside job and therefore nobody expected there to be an assassin at the conference

 

[KarmicCurse]

While I've always loved the movie there are all these little things that keep breaking the reality of the story, which is so crucial and fragile in sci-fi.

Add to the above the fact that Kirk and McCoy are in uniform (with detection patch attached) througout arrest, trial, and exile. There's really no way to determine the origin of a torpedo besides the viewscreen? (The novelization nicely corrected for that with computer hacking). Assassins with really bad aim. The two ships never go to warp for convenience of attack. Valeris is right there in the doorway overhearing Kirk's log.

Worst of all is the dialogue, which has way too much exposition to the audience and not enough actual character interraction, people saying things for our benefit that they should already know: "If we're all here where's Sulu?" "Captain Sulu, on assignment."

I admit these are nerdy dissections that are the results of too many viewings. But the frustration is from the belief that if Nick Meyer had given this fine movie with it's great plot the same adult, dramatic treatment he gave TWOK it could have been the best one in the series!

 

[Basil]

Some of these are just minor quibbles that can be found in any film. Why do the stormtroopers fly through the forest when they could fly over it, for instance, or why an amphibious assault in one of the Star Wars movies when we've seen in all the others they could just fly over anything? If Batman wants to protect his secret identity, why doesn't he just use an ordinary looking car instead of one that screams "Batman's coming" or "There he goes!" from a mile away?

Star Trek has a tradition of finding a way for the main characters to be present during the action. Given that the ship has a 24-hour duty rotation, it's remarkable that the main characters are always on duty at the same time when something important happens.

But to address some of the more telling problems, the expository dialogue is a problem, especially given that we already know that Sulu is a captain by the time that line is said.

The veridian patch never bothered me, in part because in order for us to believe that Chang wanted Kirk and McCoy to be killed while escaping, there had to be a point to their escapting. Without the Enterprise or some other ship there to take them off the planet, no such escape would make sense, and there would be no way for the Enterprise to find them if it wasn't for something like the veridian patch. It seems reasonable to me that this was also why the Enterprise was able to get into Klingon space so easily . . . that is, that Chang may have ordered it.

The Khitomer conference having minimal security kind of works if the rationale is that because it was secret and because both sides distrusted each other they negotiated for minimal security as a sign of trust . . . that is, that neither side would have substantial security forces that could be used against the other. A fleet of ships protecting the planet might also draw attention to what is supposed to be a covert meeting.

I don't think ST VI is the best of the films, but it is third or fourth for me because it was significantly more entertaining than most of them and that is a feat all to itself. At least it manages to give the characters something to do rather than sit and talk or look at a viewscreen while pushing many buttons.

 

[Timo]

Regarding the ambush on Crewman Dax, it may have been a rare instance of hero character genius: place the security outside the door as soon as Dax goes in, so that when he makes the inevitable escape attempt, there won't be an exciting chase scene after all.

On the whole gravity boot chase, it was something Valeris actively promoted, as she knew it would never lead anywhere and would nicely consume the time our heroes needed to find the real culprits. Chekov could be easily led on a leash on this matter; I wonder when Spock noticed he had been had, too?

The issue of the "phasers in the galley" scene is easily solved by purchasing Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise. Why do our heroes meet there in the first place? Quite possibly because it's conveniently located right off the bridge and the officers' lounge, and is probably the uppermost "lower decks" area in a ship whose top levels are officer territory. The cooks could be potential assassins... But more importantly, it's a good place to launch a systematic search, moving down.

It's also a good place for Valeris to arrange a diversion by starting to shoot at things. No more Vulcan deductions that might uncover the onboard accomplice of the assassins... No more lingering in the area where Valeris has just planted the evidence, namely the assassination suits. And Valeris has just preempted any "gunpowder residue" test that might be performed on her if and when she fires another phaser aboard the ship.

All he has to do is take off his utility jacket and put on the officer's coat, he could have done it on the way to the transporter room.

Actually, the funny thing is that Scotty seems to change pretty much everything: his undershirt goes from white to yellow when he swaps the vest for the jacket...

We might well argue on basis of this that our heroes deliberately masqueraded themselves as respectable and well-dressed conference attendees before beaming down and beginning to shout and shove. A more ragtag group might have faced more resistance, I guess.

Furthermore, it would seem that the security for this conference should have been a bit more beefed up. Considering that the main architect of peace conference had already been murdered, you'd think they'd have a security force on hand. Kirk and Co. were able to get to the President pretty easily.

A security force could have been a hindrance to Colonel West's attempt at shooting the President. Perhaps he wanted both the President and the Chancellorette shot? Or several more targets in a row? In that case, the fewer bodies to block the phaser bolts, the better. So he would cook up some seemingly plausible argument for having the guards on the outside of the room, with "his men" (i.e. nobody) covering key locations such as the corridor and the sniping room, and Chang arranging for the same sort of non-protection for his part. Both these conspirators seemed conveniently placed to arrange for this.

One has to ask why West in his assassin role wore a Klingon mask. Was the idea to implicate the Klingons by having somebody check the security cameras afterwards, and spot a Klingon leaving the main area with a suspicious case in his hand? Or was West going to poke his head out of the window after a successful kill, so that everybody would get a good look (but hopefully not a good shot), then escape? Or was the mask there to enable escape, so that West could change species simply by tearing off the mask (and the uniform) and thus fool pursuit?

...it's remarkable that the main characters are always on duty at the same time when something important happens.

Not quite so remarkable when one remembers that most episodes don't start out with an "innocent", "everyday" scene, but cut right into the chase (often literally). In the preceding, unseen scenes, somebody would have waken up the main heroes and informed them that the ship is approaching the adventure of the week.

It would be remarkable if the top officers remained sleeping when the ship is at red alert, or approaching an important location, or scheduled to meet another ship, or has just received an important assignment...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr Silver]

One has to ask why West in his assassin role wore a Klingon mask. Was the idea to implicate the Klingons by having somebody check the security cameras afterwards, and spot a Klingon leaving the main area with a suspicious case in his hand? Or was West going to poke his head out of the window after a successful kill, so that everybody would get a good look (but hopefully not a good shot), then escape? Or was the mask there to enable escape, so that West could change species simply by tearing off the mask (and the uniform) and thus fool pursuit?

It was probably to implicate the Klingon's so they could continue hostilities. The federation had done their bit by firing upon the chancellor's ship and sending assassins aboard to take out several Klingons and the chancellor himself. After all, that was the original goal of the traitors from both sides, they loathed each other and felt that more glory could be achieved from war than peace.

Perhaps it was because Chang went back on his word. We can assume that Cartwright pulled some strings and Kirk and McCoy were spared the death sentence, however its obvious that when they were at Rura Penthe, Chang arranged it so they would be killed trying to escape. The federation conspirators caught wind of this and arranged for a Klingon (West in disguise) to be the UFP President' assassin. If it was sucessful, maybe they would then accuse Chang of sending the assassin as retaliation for the attack on the chancellors ship (and for the murders of Kirk and McCoy. But they didn't count on Kirk and McCoy surviving and Valeris' confession which lead to Chang's ship being destroyed and the Enterprise crew preventing any more assassinations.

A thing thats always confused was Nanclus' involvement in the conspiracy. What did he have to gain from helping two of his sworn enemies carry out a plan to engineer war? Perhaps he was convinced they'd eliminate each other and the Romulan's would then have control over the Alpha Quadrant. Or maybe it was purely on resources, we know the Klingons and Romulans traded technologies in the 2260's. Or maybe it was a diplomatic thing, the Romulan's would stay out of the war in a hostile capacity, but trade with both sides in return for no further hostile action from either side.

 

[Timo]

We should note that before TUC, these two sides had not gone to war with each other. What was holding them back? The Organians? Hardly, because TOS was rife with violent Fed/Klingon conflict after "Errand of Mercy", and ST2 and the following movies returned fully to the concept of the Klingons being a merciless battlefield enemy.

So, what changed? What tilted a precious, precarious balance? It may well be that Nanclus did... If Romulans agreed to stand out of any Fed/Klingon conflict, they'd win the hearts and minds of Feds who'd now be confident they could win. For all we know, Nanclus even offered active assistance, such as cloaks that would make the Rura Penthe extraction operation practicable (which is why he'd be an integral part of that briefing!), or even full if covert military alliance.

Nanclus would naturally do the same with the Klingons: he'd swear that Romulus would not help the Feds, and perhaps that Romulus would help the Empire. With these promises, he could finally ignite the war and get rid of the two biggest threats to Romulus. But if one set of promises was known to the other side, nothing would happen: the balance would remain unaltered, as confirmed Romulan duplicity would keep both sides convinced that the other side would get Romulan assistance and could not be successfully attacked.

So each of the three players would be backstabbing the others from the very start. Only, Cartwright would know Chang was doing it to him, and vice versa, as the two had no common interest and wanted each other dead ASAP when the war finally did get going. But both might remain in the dark about Nanclus' duplicity, or at least the full extent of it.

Other, possibly related weirdness: why do Vulcans and Romulans share colors at Khitomer? There are four distinct color groups: Klingon red, UFP/Starfleet blue, mysterious green, and joint Romulan-Vulcan yellow (with the yellow flags featuring both IDIC symbols and Romulan birds, and with Nanclus and Sarek sharing sash colors and seating).

A possible Vulcan-Romulan "diplomatic spring" at the time would help explain why Nanclus was so trusted by Starfleet and the UFP President. Perhaps that came first, always aimed at facilitating the conspiracy but unsuspected by the Feds or the Klingons?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[sbk1234]

The galley scene. I'll skip the phaser locker and ask why Uhura and Scotty show up to question why the alarm went off. Don't these guys have more pressing things to do? Is it just to bring our main characters back into a scene together?

I have no trouble believing that Scotty would have spent a lot of time near the galley...

 

[balls]

The galley scene. I'll skip the phaser locker and ask why Uhura and Scotty show up to question why the alarm went off. Don't these guys have more pressing things to do? Is it just to bring our main characters back into a scene together?

I have no trouble believing that Scotty would have spent a lot of time near the galley...

True...true.

 

[BillJ]

The galley scene. I'll skip the phaser locker and ask why Uhura and Scotty show up to question why the alarm went off. Don't these guys have more pressing things to do? Is it just to bring our main characters back into a scene together?

I have no trouble believing that Scotty would have spent a lot of time near the galley...

He probably chose quarters on that deck.

 

[Captrek]

balls, you have barely scratched the surface of the illogical nonsense in TUC. I used to dislike the film because of it. For some reason, it doesn’t bother me anymore, and I now thoroughly enjoy the movie despite the nonsensicality.

 

[CobraCommander]

These are valid observations (most especially the locator patch on Kirk's back). Unfortunately there is no perfect Sci-Fi movie. ST IV never answered the questions of how the whales and probe species communicated with each other. ST TMP practically fell off a cliff at the end (leaving V'ger was like taking an emergency exit). I still feel that ST VI is the second best Star Trek film. Cobra

 

[balls]

These are valid observations (most especially the locator patch on Kirk's back). Unfortunately there is no perfect Sci-Fi movie. ST IV never answered the questions of how the whales and probe species communicated with each other. ST TMP practically fell off a cliff at the end (leaving V'ger was like taking an emergency exit). I still feel that ST VI is the second best Star Trek film. Cobra

I agree that there are no perfect Sci-Fi movies. I think I can accept some of the unanswered sci-fi questions (much like GEN - how do you get into the Nexus - fly a ship in; how do you get out- you just walk out). I guess my nits are about the storytelling aspect of the movie. There are times (if I've watched the movies in order) that when I see the scene on the bridge with the books I think, "The campfire scene in TFF isn't so bad..."
I think when I compare the 2 Nick Meyer directed movies, I think that TUC seems to be a let down (given what he did with TWOK).

 

[Phantassm]

I think some people take this stuff way too serious.

 

[Butters]

Did the Nit Pickers Guide not cover the movies?