TUC Concerns

[HaventGotALife]

Leave him dead and have Kirk return to be Captain of a ship. But that's not the III we got and the outcome makes him extremely arrogant from that point on....

This is a tenative peace, a fragile affair. Spock opened the door and let a bull in the china shop. That's how he put the mission in danger.

I'm not following your arguments because I don't understand Kirk was arrogant or endangered the Kitohmer mission. You haven't really explained either of those. Especially since you said 99% of fleet captains would be no different than Kirk.

Kirk is both arrogant in IV, V, and VI (as a character) AND he endangered the mission by being such an overt bigot and moping around the Enterprise. He wasn't vigilant against possible attacks on the ship. He was drinking Romulan Ale and calling Chang Hitler. Enough examples?

Why an outlaw Kirk? I don't know. Why not? We've seen him every other way, but mostly as the good, if not rough around the edges, soldier. This is a new facet of Kirk and it shows what he;s willing to do for friendship. I don't see where arrogance shows up here. Just fierce loyalty. You need to give me some examples.

Because he sacrificed his career for his friend. Fine. But take away his career. Don't reward him. The man doesn't do anything he doesn't want to do for the rest of the movies. He complains. He doesn't report back to space-dock. He is a renegade, emboldened by what happened with Spock. His attitude toward the Klingons adds to this. They are the only ones he hasn't vanquished.
"We've done our bit for King and Country."

 

[Mark 2000]

Let me get this straight, you're mad because he took the ship on a quick tour before he retired as a bitter sweet ending? You don't have a leg to stand on, friend.

And taking a mission that was forced on him? I don't see arrogance there. His attitude toward the Klingons has nothing to do with post outlaw arrogance. I think you need to look that word up. Blinded by sadness and anger, maybe, but not full of himself.

I still don't get your point. This is a character study. An old warrior realizing he needs to change. It doesn't matter how bad he is at the beginning as long as its in character, and it is. This is the same JTK that shot Kras in the leg with an arrow for the mere sport of it 30 years earlier. Now he needs to redirect that anger and deal with it. And by the end he does.

 

[HaventGotALife]

Let me get this straight, you're mad because he took the ship on a quick tour before he retired as a bitter sweet ending? You don't have a leg to stand on, friend.

And taking a mission that was forced on him? I don't see arrogance there. His attitude toward the Klingons has nothing to do with post outlaw arrogance. I think you need to look that word up. Blinded by sadness and anger, maybe, but not full of himself.

I still don't get your point. This is a character study. An old warrior realizing he needs to change. It doesn't matter how bad he is at the beginning as long as its in character, and it is. This is the same JTK that shot Kras in the leg with an arrow for the mere sport of it 30 years earlier. Now he needs to redirect that anger and deal with it. And by the end he does.

I've given plenty of examples. Minimizing them doesn't change the fact the character was changed by surviving the court martial. He tempered himself before that. Try watching the first three scenes of TUC with Kirk (in the Conference Room, piloting out of spacedock on the bridge, his log, his reaction to Valeris in his cabin).

His opinion/gut/emotions guide him which is why his bigotry is so profound on the bridge of his ship. He doesn't try to hide it, even when talking to Gorkon, Chang, and everyone else.

His arrogance comes from how he conducts himself, not from his story arc. Congratulations. He had to lose the mission (thank god the Klingons didn't declare war), be imprisoned, have his personal log played at trial, before he said "Oops." That's arrogance. He's always right and has to lose a tremendous amount before it gets through to him--well, I might have been wrong.

 

[T'Girl]

... all the rest of Trek for not thinking of this likely weakness earlier.

Uhura's idea of a method to detect the BOP, carried the suggestion that the equipment to perform the detection wasn't usually carried aboard a starship.

His opinion/gut/emotions guide him which is why his bigotry is so profound on the bridge of his ship.

The Klingons were the enemies and opponents of the Federation, Kirk's animosity towards them likely wasn't based upon bigotry, nor even solely on the fact that Klingons murdered his son.

His career was filled with experiences with the Klingons and their ways. Kirk understood them better than most. No, not bigotry, knowledge.

 

[Mark 2000]

Let me get this straight, you're mad because he took the ship on a quick tour before he retired as a bitter sweet ending? You don't have a leg to stand on, friend.

And taking a mission that was forced on him? I don't see arrogance there. His attitude toward the Klingons has nothing to do with post outlaw arrogance. I think you need to look that word up. Blinded by sadness and anger, maybe, but not full of himself.

Considering you haven't mentioned anything from TFF and you can't know the intermediate 6 to 10 missing years the court martial can't be the turning point. Being forced into something right before retirement probably is. So your thesis is DOA, man.

 

[HaventGotALife]

Let me get this straight, you're mad because he took the ship on a quick tour before he retired as a bitter sweet ending? You don't have a leg to stand on, friend.

And taking a mission that was forced on him? I don't see arrogance there. His attitude toward the Klingons has nothing to do with post outlaw arrogance. I think you need to look that word up. Blinded by sadness and anger, maybe, but not full of himself.

Considering you haven't mentioned anything from TFF and you can't know the intermediate 6 to 10 missing years the court martial can't be the turning point. Being forced into something right before retirement probably is. So your thesis is DOA, man.

Complaining, which I said in one of my posts, refers to "Oh Please" when the Admiral is saying "I need Jim Kirk."