Pick-A-Dax

[iguana_tonante]

Precisely.

Also, some people seem to have an unhealthy obsession with the character of Ezri (and what she represents in terms of femininity) which goes beyond the usual like/dislike for a fictional character. But that's stuff for another thread.

 

[Distorted Humor]

There's nothing wrong with finding one character more appealing than another, in fact that's what an awful lot of threads on this board are all about.

Then why did you accuse that people who like ezri are males who don't like strong women?

 

[iguana_tonante]

Did you read the rest of her post?

 

[Distorted Humor]

Did you read the rest of her post?

Well, she the one who just assumes justifications that do not exist, and perhaps it is annoying that posters are insting that anyone who would dare like Ezri over Jazdia thinks women "should be in the kitchen" as some would say. Posters have stated many reasons, such as they find Jazdia arrogant, that the KPG gets old, or that they like Jazdia, but REALLY like Ezri. yet some posters are insisting that our real reasons are that we don't like strong women.

Post such as...

I get an impression that most Ezri fans are men and that they don't like Jadzia because she was a strong character who didn't play the girly role. I suspect Kira isn't popular with them either.

the implication isn't that there's a disapproval of strength, it's that there's a disapproval of a certain kind of strength, the kind that isn't nurturing.

So, to sum up; it's ok for men to be arrogant, promiscuous, self-reliant, manipulative and formidably knowledgeable but it's not ok for women; with the proviso that if they happen to be soldiers with some of these traits, provided they show some kind of weakness they can be forgiven. I think I've got it now.

^ Because a women's life is not meant to be fun. Or at least, not that kind of fun. She drinks, she fights, she flirts, she enjoy life, she's smarter than you and she's not afraid to tells you that. Who she think she is, a man?

Because dating and/or marriage is the only real use of a woman. That's the unsaid assumption, I'd surmise.

^see, in all these posts it is argued that Ezri fans deep down inside just don't think much of strong women who break traditional roles. Even if most of the Ezri lovers like Kira, who was a much better written Strong women. If I started to assume your reasons that are for other less wholesome reasons, you would get miffed too...

Kinda like if someone said "I never cared for Sisko as a star fleet officer, as he poisoned a whole world and was never called out on it. " - Which to some would be a valid reason. But then saomeone says

"I suspect that people don't like Sisko are whites that they don't like Black Men in positions of power, and really they don't like the angry black man" do you not agree that that would get the person who doesn't like Sisko a little ...miffed?

(For the record, I think Sisko is a badass and is my fave Captain)

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Exactly. I couldn't say it better myself.

How the heck the criticisms of her which iguana listed, criticizing her personality (not her freedom, mind you) could be simplified as "she doesn't know her place" is a mystery. Frankly, it strikes me as desperation stemming from a chip on the shoulder the size of Montana!

If you don't see the mysoginy in that kind of comments, the disapproval for not conforming to a a nurturing, vulnerable and passive role, I don't know what else I can do.

Then you're lost in the confusion, sir--because I don't.

 

[Thestral]

If I can't sit down and get to KNOW you on more levels than just partying, and if you are constantly into one-upsmanship, that is not grounds for friendship, partnership, marriage, or any of it.

Good thing that doesn't apply to Jadzia then.

Well, since neither side is going to convince the other on that issue--and both, I think, have given their respective cases as well as they could--I think we'd best agree to disagree on that.

Except of course that this is a core part of the disagreement. You can't just dismiss it like that.

Why would you post that unless you wanted to be controversial? You can't just write something like that and then be "No, just kidding, I don't really believe that."

I've been trying to have a serious discussion here but the whole thing has gotten so ridiculous it doesn't seem worth responding anymore.

It's a particular tactic that I like to call the Glenn Beck School of Argument.

In fact, to tell you my open secret, I don't particularly like the character of Jadzia either, I'm kinda neutral about her.

Quell horror!

How the heck the criticisms of her which iguana listed, criticizing her personality (not her freedom, mind you) could be simplified as "she doesn't know her place" is a mystery.

You should be aware if you're not already that that's exactly what those particular criticisms indicate. And especially the ones (like "hardcore man-izer") that project things to an extreme degree.

If you don't see the mysoginy in that kind of comments, the disapproval for not conforming to a a nurturing, vulnerable and passive role, I don't know what else I can do.

Then you're lost in the confusion, sir--because I don't.

I'm pretty sure iguana's not the one who's confused here.

Re: Distorted Humor's Sisko analogy (sorry I forgot to quote): if people were saying they *never* cared for Sisko because he poisoned a Maquis planet, it would deserve some serious eyebrow raising, because then it begs the question of why didn't they like Sisko beforehand? But if they said "I never cared for Sisko after poisoning..." they'd have a legit point.

However, if their "reasons" also included

because he's disrespectful towards white officers
because he's always angry and grumpy
he's an arrogant know-it-all
etc., etc.

it would also deserve some eyebrow raising.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Good thing that doesn't apply to Jadzia then.

Well, since neither side is going to convince the other on that issue--and both, I think, have given their respective cases as well as they could--I think we'd best agree to disagree on that.

Except of course that this is a core part of the disagreement. You can't just dismiss it like that.

I'm not. I am simply pointing out that neither side intends to give ground on this. We've given our side, you've given yours. And all both sides are doing are repeating themselves.

You should be aware if you're not already that that's exactly what those particular criticisms indicate. And especially the ones (like "hardcore man-izer") that project things to an extreme degree.

Let me ask once more: how is that the case? Once again, the only "defense" for this accusation seems to involve simply repeating it!

If you don't see the mysoginy in that kind of comments, the disapproval for not conforming to a a nurturing, vulnerable and passive role, I don't know what else I can do.

Then you're lost in the confusion, sir--because I don't.

I'm pretty sure iguana's not the one who's confused here.

And I'm pretty sure I'm not.

Re: Distorted Humor's Sisko analogy (sorry I forgot to quote): if people were saying they *never* cared for Sisko because he poisoned a Maquis planet, it would deserve some serious eyebrow raising, because then it begs the question of why didn't they like Sisko beforehand? But if they said "I never cared for Sisko after poisoning..." they'd have a legit point.

Of course, if his actions there were an example of seemingly permanent pattern in his actions...the former statement would be more acceptable, surely.

However, if their "reasons" also included

because he's disrespectful towards white officers
because he's always angry and grumpy
he's an arrogant know-it-all
etc., etc.

it would also deserve some eyebrow raising.

Provided, of course, those accusations were not true. In Sisko's case, those accusations are absolutely not true. If they were--well, don't shoot the messenger for pointing out the truth!

 

[Deckerd]

True? You're talking about your subjectivity being true? I think we're coming to the centre of the problem right there.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Well, let's look at subjectivity for a moment. Were such "reasons" about Sisko somehow warranting accusations of racism--as seems to be Kestrel's point--wouldn't it therefore follow that the "reasons" are not true?

But if such things are subjective--then such accusations are meaningless, are they not?

 

[Deckerd]

Kestrel was pointing out that IF someone used those reasons for their general dislike of Sisko, the nature of those justifications would raise eyebrows.

 

[Thestral]

And especially if, as with the Jadzia incarnation of Dax, said reasons came with little evidence and more "feeling."

 

[Darth Duck]

You should be aware if you're not already that that's exactly what those particular criticisms indicate. And especially the ones (like "hardcore man-izer") that project things to an extreme degree.

Let me ask once more: how is that the case? Once again, the only "defense" for this accusation seems to involve simply repeating it!

SLUT! You're saying she's a slut! A womanizer is colloquially known as a number of things, among them man-slut, or man-whore. We're moving past the days where a womanizer is a "hero." You're saying she's loose, that she is involved with a number of men. Honestly if this has to be spelled out for you...

 

[Rush Limborg]

And especially if, as with the Jadzia incarnation of Dax, said reasons came with little evidence and more "feeling."

Well, even allowing for that to be the case...exactly what would warrant such accusations of racism? Why not simply ask for examples--which I'm sure we'd be quite willing to provide?

You should be aware if you're not already that that's exactly what those particular criticisms indicate. And especially the ones (like "hardcore man-izer") that project things to an extreme degree.

Let me ask once more: how is that the case? Once again, the only "defense" for this accusation seems to involve simply repeating it!

SLUT! You're saying she's a slut! A womanizer is colloquially known as a number of things, among them man-slut, or man-whore.

Really? Well, that's frankly taking it to the extreme.... And it's frankly pretty amusing--regardless of what gender you're referring to.

We're moving past the days where a womanizer is a "hero."

Last I heard, James Bond is still going strong.

You're saying she's loose, that she is involved with a number of men.

As Nerys--who is a WOMAN, mind you--noted, Jadzia is like a female James T. Kirk. Kirk was not a "man slut" or a "man whore" or any of that nonsense, he was a womanizer--a "ladies' man". I hardly think Jadzia was a "slut" or a "whore", either.

Honestly if this has to be spelled out for you...

Like I said--a chip on the shoulder the size of Montana.

 

[Distorted Humor]

as a note, I never called Jazdia a Slut, and in fact, made a couple points to say she NOT one...

 

[Darth Duck]

SLUT! You're saying she's a slut! A womanizer is colloquially known as a number of things, among them man-slut, or man-whore.

Really? Well, that's frankly taking it to the extreme.... And it's frankly pretty amusing--regardless of what gender you're referring to.

I hardly think so. Among my circle of friends/classmates/casual acquaintances the term "womanizer" is never used. It's man-whore.

Last I heard, James Bond is still going strong.

Yep.
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkp4t5NYzVM[/yt]

You're saying she's loose, that she is involved with a number of men.

As Nerys--who is a WOMAN, mind you--noted, Jadzia is like a female James T. Kirk. Kirk was not a "man slut" or a "man whore" or any of that nonsense, he was a womanizer--a "ladies' man". I hardly think Jadzia was a "slut" or a "whore", either.

No, Kirk was pretty much a man-whore. Love 'em and leave 'em. A girl in every starport. He just doesn't face a stigma for it.

Honestly if this has to be spelled out for you...

Like I said--a chip on the shoulder the size of Montana.

Hahaha

 

[Thestral]

^ Point of order. Kirk as a shameless womanizer is something of an exaggeration, if an understandable one based on the way 60s tv expected female guest stars to throw themselves at the strapping hero.

Well, even allowing for that to be the case...exactly what would warrant such accusations of racism? Why not simply ask for examples--which I'm sure we'd be quite willing to provide?

Making accusations without providing any evidence implies discimination, obviously. So, I'd be happy to talk about examples.

SLUT! You're saying she's a slut! A womanizer is colloquially known as a number of things, among them man-slut, or man-whore.

Really? Well, that's frankly taking it to the extreme.... And it's frankly pretty amusing--regardless of what gender you're referring to.

What else could "womanizer" possibly mean?

 

[Rush Limborg]

SLUT! You're saying she's a slut! A womanizer is colloquially known as a number of things, among them man-slut, or man-whore.

Really? Well, that's frankly taking it to the extreme.... And it's frankly pretty amusing--regardless of what gender you're referring to.

I hardly think so. Among my circle of friends/classmates/casual acquaintances the term "womanizer" is never used. It's man-whore.

Indeed. Whereas as far as I am concerned, it's a "chip on the shoulder" mindset.

No, Kirk was pretty much a man-whore. Love 'em and leave 'em. A girl in every starport. He just doesn't face a stigma for it.

A "whore", or "slut", is someone who sells his or her body for sexual purposes. Now, unless Kirk was involved in a gigolo trade I was not aware of...


As for Jadzia--she has quite a few relationships with men. Captain Boday--the "trainer" in "Playing God"--the fire-dancer from "You Are Cordially Invited"...

BUT--as I have said--that does not make her a "slut", or a "whore", or any of that nonsense! It simply means she was one for casual relationships, which were not long-term--despite her assertions to Julian that Joined Trill are "above" such things.

She was one for "one-night stands", if you will. And that's fine by me--I just don't personally care for that sort of thing.

Kirk's conquests, similar to Jadzia's, were limited by and large to flirtation--perhpas to a kiss--that sort of thing. Sometimes, we get the idea that it went further--same for Jadzia.

Kirk was a...fervent admirer of the female form. Jadzia was the same for men.

Kirk is considered to be a "womanizer"--but he is not by any stretch of the imagination a "man-slut". Jadzia is the female counterpart to that--she flirts like mad, and on occasion goes for one-night stands. She is not a "slut". She is, for lack of a better term, a "man-izer".

Yep.

Frankly, I can't find myself able to listen to M's asking, "Are we equals, 007?" without mutteting in a Daniel Craig voice, "No, ma'am. You're my boss."

 

[Darth Duck]

Whore =/= slut. Slut has nothing to do with money.

EDIT:

Really? Well, that's frankly taking it to the extreme.... And it's frankly pretty amusing--regardless of what gender you're referring to.

I hardly think so. Among my circle of friends/classmates/casual acquaintances the term "womanizer" is never used. It's man-whore.

Indeed. Whereas as far as I am concerned, it's a "chip on the shoulder" mindset.

Really? I tend to think of it as great that we don't endorse a societal double-standard and eschew promiscuity.

No, Kirk was pretty much a man-whore. Love 'em and leave 'em. A girl in every starport. He just doesn't face a stigma for it.

A "whore", or "slut", is someone who sells his or her body for sexual purposes. Now, unless Kirk was involved in a gigolo trade I was not aware of...

Again, you misunderstand the term slut and it's connotations.

Frankly, I can't find myself able to listen to M's asking, "Are we equals, 007?" without mutteting in a Daniel Craig voice, "No, ma'am. You're my boss."

Then you really don't get what it was about.

 

[Deckerd]

A whore is a hooker or prostitute or sex worker. A promiscuous woman has many euphemisms so you can push the envelope a bit like maneater or easy or even skank.

Man-whore is a male prostitute. As far as I know no officer of the Federation actually put out for money, male or female. Get your terminology right people.

 

[Darth Duck]

^But they don't have money in the Federation...