Pick-A-Dax

[Distorted Humor]

I'm not criticizing your choice of who you'd want to marry, but I'm asking why it's about that here.

Some posters are insisting that people who like Ezri likes a women who has X criteria, and that these same Ezri fans think that women are only good for baby making and raising. And I was pointing out that while I wouldn't want to MARRY J. Dax, she would be a fun drinking buddy.

But I still like Ezri a lot more the J. Dax. This is not due to me hating women who are strong. (Heck, Kira is one of my faves) but that J. Dax got really boring as a KPG.

But I prefer KPG Dax over Nelix, Wesley, or Kim anyday.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Once again, I...fail to see your logic, sir.

I'll walk you through this: Kestra asked why people are approaching the issue from a romantic point of view ("I like Ezri better because she's what I look for in a partner", paraphrasing). I gave my answer, which was that the unsaid assumption of that kind of comments was that women's main role is that of partners and spouses, so that was the standard against which they were judged. Not taking into account other traits (intelligence, eloquence, military skills, whatever) but only compatibility and looks, the impression is that people who wrote that kind of comments see those female characters (and by extentension, women), only through the lens of romance and/or gender role, instead of as full persons. I hope that clears it for you.

Is this seriously your own opinion?? My God......

I see you are new. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I can see it. It's what I've been trying to describe but have apparently failed to do so. But it seems like many of the people who like Ezri talk in detail about her femininity or that the traits that they specify liking are those which are stereotypically feminine. Even you, when talking about some sort of alter-Jadzia (?) spoke of how you liked her and she seemed "sweet" and "more vulnerable."

I'm not saying that you think all women belong in the kitchen or something (or maybe you do!) but surely you can at least see what we're talking about here. How some of these opinions can be interpreted in this light.

I'm not criticizing your choice of who you'd want to marry, but I'm asking why it's about that here.

Well, at least one is paying attention here.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I see. Well then...allow me to respond:

I do not see "women's main role" as being "that of partners and spouse", any more than I would see men's main role in that manner. Except possibly in the religious sense*, I wouldn't say there is any one "main role", for either gender--certainly not in that sense.

I still don't get why so many people are looking at it primarily from the perspective of dating and marriage material. To me, Jadzia seems like she'd be a blast just to have around.

She wouldn't be, for me. And I would not be looking at her in any sort of amorous fashion, since I am not interested in women.

In my case, if I were looking at men, I would not be too interested in dating OR hanging out with a man like Kirk (the best male comparison to Jadzia). That whole shtick would get aggravating fast. If I can't sit down and get to KNOW you on more levels than just partying, and if you are constantly into one-upsmanship, that is not grounds for friendship, partnership, marriage, or any of it.

I would be much better friends with Kira. She's strong, but she doesn't express that in a way that feels the need to make light of others. She has that confidence without thinking she's the best thing since sliced bread. I would feel like I could learn a thing or two from her--but learn without being belittled or devalued for what I am, which is much closer in personality to Ezri.

For Ezri, my liking for her is admittedly a "like me" thing. I see similar traits to myself and I would feel like I could be who I am around her without being judged.

Amen, amen, and amen! QFT and ITA!

(Of course, I wouldn't quite see Ezri as like me, per se. Still...)






*(And by that, I mean the concept of humanity's main purpose being that of bringing glory to God. If you believe in such things, of course. )

 

[Mage]

I see you are new. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Why thank you.

PS, you've only been here a year longer then I have. I just don't post that much. Sarcasm is hard to read every now and then, so excuse me for not reading your subtlety.

 

[Distorted Humor]

Well, at least one is paying attention here.

Sigh, actually it was Deckard who insisted that anyone who liked Ezri was a male-chauvinistic pig that started this.

I get an impression that most Ezri fans are men and that they don't like Jadzia because she was a strong character who didn't play the girly role. I suspect Kira isn't popular with them either.

when I pointed out that I adore Kira, that I love Ezri, but I don't like KPG Dax much. then the concept came up that we didn't like KPG Dax since she wasn't "nurturing" and we pointed out that nurturing might matter for marriage and kid raising, but not likeablity in a show.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I'm not criticizing your choice of who you'd want to marry, but I'm asking why it's about that here.

Some posters are insisting that people who like Ezri likes a women who has X criteria, and that these same Ezri fans think that women are only good for baby making and raising. And I was pointing out that while I wouldn't want to MARRY J. Dax, she would be a fun drinking buddy.

But I still like Ezri a lot more the J. Dax. This is not due to me hating women who are strong. (Heck, Kira is one of my faves) but that J. Dax got really boring as a KPG.

But I prefer KPG Dax over Nelix, Wesley, or Kim anyday.

Frankly, I would lead the cheers any time we'd see Ezri kicking rear-end and taking names (SEE: "Field of Fire", the "Strange Bedfellows" escape-attempt scene, etc.)--provided her character isn't "rewritten" in addition to that.

 

[Thestral]

If I can't sit down and get to KNOW you on more levels than just partying, and if you are constantly into one-upsmanship, that is not grounds for friendship, partnership, marriage, or any of it.

Good thing that doesn't apply to Jadzia then.

]I'll walk you through this: Kestra asked why people are approaching the issue from a romantic point of view ("I like Ezri better because she's what I look for in a partner", paraphrasing). I gave my answer, which was that the unsaid assumption of that kind of comments was that women's main role is that of partners and spouses, so that was the standard against which they were judged. Not taking into account other traits (intelligence, eloquence, military skills, whatever) but only compatibility and looks, the impression is that people who wrote that kind of comments see those female characters (and by extentension, women), only through the lens of romance and/or gender role, instead of as full persons. I hope that clears it for you.

You and Kestra put it really well, as typical.

I'm wondering, though, how much of this is even conscious or acknowledged. Maybe it's a problem of the question "which version of Dax do you prefer" that naturally leads some people (myself probably included, to be fair) to value traits that have more to do with compatibility and partnership because it's a subjective question of which one makes you "happier."Or at least for those who are attracted to women, anyway. I dunno, does that make sense? Maybe I'm completely off-base here.

Non sequitarily (but topically related ) I think it's worth noting that it was Ezri who ultimately chose to work on incorporating the Joran personality - though it doesn't seem to have made her more ruthless and sinister the way fully incorporating Curzon adjusted Jadzia's behavior. In fairness to Jadzia of course the whole Joran personality was a total shock and it haunted her for quite some time, so you can't blame her for locking it away I think.

 

[Rush Limborg]

If I can't sit down and get to KNOW you on more levels than just partying, and if you are constantly into one-upsmanship, that is not grounds for friendship, partnership, marriage, or any of it.

Good thing that doesn't apply to Jadzia then.

Well, since neither side is going to convince the other on that issue--and both, I think, have given their respective cases as well as they could--I think we'd best agree to disagree on that.

]I'll walk you through this: Kestra asked why people are approaching the issue from a romantic point of view ("I like Ezri better because she's what I look for in a partner", paraphrasing). I gave my answer, which was that the unsaid assumption of that kind of comments was that women's main role is that of partners and spouses, so that was the standard against which they were judged. Not taking into account other traits (intelligence, eloquence, military skills, whatever) but only compatibility and looks, the impression is that people who wrote that kind of comments see those female characters (and by extentension, women), only through the lens of romance and/or gender role, instead of as full persons. I hope that clears it for you.

You and Kestra put it really well, as typical.

Again, he is assuming that we are only taking into account "compatibility and looks", and not "other traits". I would propose that we have given good enough eveidence otherwise--particularly in the first page of this thread.

I'm wondering, though, how much of this is even conscious or acknowledged. Maybe it's a problem of the question "which version of Dax do you prefer" that naturally leads some people (myself probably included, to be fair) to value traits that have more to do with compatibility and partnership because it's a subjective question of which one makes you "happier."Or at least for those who are attracted to women, anyway. I dunno, does that make sense? Maybe I'm completely off-base here.

Perhaps...perhaps not. But after all...there is still the anomaly of Nerys Ghemor in such a theory.

Non sequitarily (but topically related ) I think it's worth noting that it was Ezri who ultimately chose to work on incorporating the Joran personality - though it doesn't seem to have made her more ruthless and sinister the way fully incorporating Curzon adjusted Jadzia's behavior. In fairness to Jadzia of course the whole Joran personality was a total shock and it haunted her for quite some time, so you can't blame her for locking it away I think.

Well, I would venture that, as Joran almost got Ezri to kill two people--that got Ezri to make sure she would severely limit Joran's influence.

However...Joran's power-lust, paranoia, and general social hostility could well have been a subtle (or not-so-subtle) influence in her "growth" in the Relaunch....

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

I prefer Ezri not for compatibility's sake, but because I find her a more conceptually interesting character.

DS9 is all about misfits and funny-shaped people who can't fit in their round holes. Jadzia was a round peg from the start. She fit in her hole. She has NO PROBLEM being stuck on DS9. Every other character had a problem with DS9 from the start.

Since I don't mind being yelled at and having my posts deconstructed in massive quote trees, I'll say it now: Jadzia steered very close at times to being a Mary Sue. I don't feel compelled to provide evidence, so please, nobody force me to provide any - not having piles of argument does not make my opinion cease to exist.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^No need; I can see where you are going with that, though I may not necessarily agree wholeheartedly.

The "Mary Sue", in its strictest sense, is the embodiment of an ideal of sorts, on the part of the author--typically, an ideal of the author him/her-self. A classic example, of course, is Wesley Crusher, whom has often been described as The Bird's own "Mary/Marty Sue".

Frankly...I think the best evidence for your proposal can be found in the most vehement--and indeed, the most militant--of those on the opposing side of you and me. Namely...those who would assert that those like me do not care for Jadzia because we do not wish to see women as "free", or as having fun any way they wish, etc.

Taking your hypothesis and expanding it into a theory, one could thus assert that Jadzia--be it "austere" Jadzia or "party girl" Jadzia--is in effect the "Mary Sue" for women who feel suppressed by what they see as the "male dominance" of the culture. They rejoice at the embodiment of a woman who scoffs at all the desires of men, in the case of the "austere"--or who scoffs at all the inhibitions they assert to be imposed on them by men, in the case of the "party girl".

She is, to be frank, "perfect" in that regard. But to be blunt, such an attitude invariably leads to hostility against those who do not share such concepts--particularly, against men who do not share such concepts.


In fact...were I myself in a "controversial" mood (I'd best put on my poncho now, for the tomatoes...)--a mood akin to those who have made the assertions I have mentioned--I would suggest that the men who defend such concepts were in some sense subconciously attempting to assuage "male guilt" of some sort--that they were cheering for a woman who would scoff at their attempts at romance, either through austerity or wildness, in order to compensate for being a member of so "suppressive" a gender.



Of course...I don't particularly care for that suggestion--call it satire, which I engaged in to make a finer point. Namely, I don't particularly care for the idea that people succumb to such concepts as "desire to suppress" or "assuaging guilt" without even having any knowledge of it. I'd perfer to think that reasons are as reasons are, and that putting words in people's mouths is not an effective means to obtain knowledge.

 

[Kestra]

Why would you post that unless you wanted to be controversial? You can't just write something like that and then be "No, just kidding, I don't really believe that."

I've been trying to have a serious discussion here but the whole thing has gotten so ridiculous it doesn't seem worth responding anymore.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I have been trying to have a serious discussion as well...however, the accusations and implications warranted a response, and I gave it.

I posted the "controversial" idea to illustrate the absurdity of the mindset's counterpart on the other side. If that "conclusion" I gave is offensive...then, observe the accusations leveled against those of my point of view, to the effect that we want to limit and/or suppress women, or that we see women's foremost purpose as spouses, etc. I simply took those frankly rediculous concepts and showed the mirror duplicate--what such an attitude would look like on my side.

I was, in effect, demonstrating absurdity by being absurd.

 

[Admiral Shran]

*sigh* I go away for a while and come back to find myself excused of being a sexist, again.

I'll be as clear as I possibly can be here, though doubtlessly with less eloquence than Rush.

My preference for Ezri is not just about the fact that I find her more attractive physically (although that is present) or just about that fact that I think someone like her would make a better dating partner (although that is present as well).

I simply prefer her *as a person* over Jadiza.

Jadiza, simply, comes off as condescending toward men, and generally toward all people. There's nothing wrong with being a "party-girl." Heck, I like "party-girls." What I don't like is when said "party-girl" acts like she is so much better than everyone else, and that is exactly what Jadiza does. She treats other people with contempt because they are, in essence, not her.

That is what I object to in Jadiza, not that she's a strong-willed, independent woman and a "Klingon party-girl." As Nerys has said, Kira is a strong-willed, independent woman, and we love her for it. If a woman wants to let lose and be a carefree party-girl, I say more power to you. But, don't start acting like that entitles you to look on everyone else as somehow beneath you.

 

[Deckerd]

Well, at least one is paying attention here.

Sigh, actually it was Deckard who insisted that anyone who liked Ezri was a male-chauvinistic pig that started this.

Oh show me where I insisted that, please, and where I used that terminology.

 

[Distorted Humor]

Oh show me where I insisted that, please, and where I used that terminology.

I get an impression that most Ezri fans are men and that they don't like Jadzia because she was a strong character who didn't play the girly role. I suspect Kira isn't popular with them either.

Perhaps I should of used "Sexist" but still...

 

[iguana_tonante]

*(And by that, I mean the concept of humanity's main purpose being that of bringing glory to God. If you believe in such things, of course. )

I don't, so it's meaningless to me. Also, why can't God bring glory to himself and must rely to us to deal with his self-esteem issues?

if you are constantly into one-upsmanship, that is not grounds for friendship, partnership, marriage, or any of it.

I would be much better friends with Kira. She's strong, but she doesn't express that in a way that feels the need to make light of others. She has that confidence without thinking she's the best thing since sliced bread. I would feel like I could learn a thing or two from her--but learn without being belittled or devalued for what I am, which is much closer in personality to Ezri.

For Ezri, my liking for her is admittedly a "like me" thing. I see similar traits to myself and I would feel like I could be who I am around her without being judged.

So... your point is that you feel that someone like Jadzia could judge you for being different from herself... and so you judge and despise her for being different from yourself. It strikes me as a very defensive attitude.

Sarcasm is hard to read every now and then, so excuse me for not reading your subtlety.

It really is, which is why you shouldn't jump at conclusions about people based on just one post.

Since I don't mind being yelled at and having my posts deconstructed in massive quote trees, I'll say it now: Jadzia steered very close at times to being a Mary Sue. I don't feel compelled to provide evidence, so please, nobody force me to provide any - not having piles of argument does not make my opinion cease to exist.

I can see what you are saying, even in I don't agree completely. And you'll find that, contrary to common misconception, I don't yell at people and I don't rip people's posts to pieces just for thinking differently from me. I'll reserve that treatment to people whose reasoning I find egregiously aggravating. You'll also notice that I will not engage everyone in this debate, because I can recognize the difference between a simple dislike of the character, and a backward attitude about women's role that I don't particular care for. In fact, to tell you my open secret, I don't particularly like the character of Jadzia either, I'm kinda neutral about her. But I will strike down unfair assessments and unsound arguments and unsupported claims at any opportunity.

In fact...were I myself in a "controversial" mood (I'd best put on my poncho now, for the tomatoes...)--a mood akin to those who have made the assertions I have mentioned--I would suggest that the men who defend such concepts were in some sense subconciously attempting to assuage "male guilt" of some sort--that they were cheering for a woman who would scoff at their attempts at romance, either through austerity or wildness, in order to compensate for being a member of so "suppressive" a gender.

Lulz. Following that reasoning, white people who support civil rights are suffering from "white guilt", and straight people who support gay rights are suffering from "hetero guilt". Are you sure you want to go there, even just for the sake of debate? Wait, don't answer that: I'm not sure I want to hear it...

Of course...I don't particularly care for that suggestion--call it satire, which I engaged in to make a finer point.

I appreciate the effort, but I have to say it didn't work well as you expected.

I posted the "controversial" idea to illustrate the absurdity of the mindset's counterpart on the other side. If that "conclusion" I gave is offensive...then, observe the accusations leveled against those of my point of view, to the effect that we want to limit and/or suppress women, or that we see women's foremost purpose as spouses, etc. I simply took those frankly rediculous concepts and showed the mirror duplicate--what such an attitude would look like on my side.

I was, in effect, demonstrating absurdity by being absurd.

Only, not very well. You might have a point if I said anything against the character of Ezri, but I never did. You are building a false comparison. (Which, I cannot help but notice, is what people do when they know they can't defend their own position any more, but let's not dwell on it.)

A couple of people targeted some criticism at the character of Ezri (mostly, that she's "whiny"), but you'll find they are in the minority: most people who like Jadzia better do it because "she would be fun to be around", not because they particularly despise Ezri. On the other hand, you'll find plenty of people praising Ezri by specifically bashing Jadzia, claiming that a woman with such an attitude is "arrogant", "using and manipulating men", "self-absorbed", "ball-busting". "hard-charging, gung-ho, hoorah Amazon.". And that's only in the first page.

That is the point of the argument, and the reason for my disappointment.

*sigh* I go away for a while and come back to find myself excused of being a sexist, again.

Well, if that happens with any consistency, you might want to check why.

 

[Deckerd]

Oh show me where I insisted that, please, and where I used that terminology.

I get an impression that most Ezri fans are men and that they don't like Jadzia because she was a strong character who didn't play the girly role. I suspect Kira isn't popular with them either.

Perhaps I should of used "Sexist" but still...

Where's the insistency? Where did I insist? It must be in another post. Can you find it?

 

[Rush Limborg]

^You said "I get the impression" and "I suspect". True, you did not flat-out use the term "insist". However--if that was not what you believed...well, was it satirical, like my comments about those who use that reasoning? Or were you serious about the "impression"?

Language is a tricky thing, Deckerd. While I commend the use of weaselers such as "impression" and "suspect"--nonetheless, it is a favorite tactic of politicians, for one, who don't want to get into trouble for what they said, who want to be able to wiggle out of any trouble by saying, in effect, "It all depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

But I will strike down unfair assessments and unsound arguments and unsupported claims at any opportunity.

Allow me to do so....

Lulz. Following that reasoning, white people who support civil rights are suffering from "white guilt", and straight people who support gay rights are suffering from "hetero guilt". Are you sure you want to go there, even just for the sake of debate? Wait, don't answer that: I'm not sure I want to hear it...

Then you agree with me--it's absurd. And that is the point. Making assumptions about "subconcious" reasons--i.e., "you're a sexist and you don't even realize it" or "you're feelign guilty about being a man and you don't even realize it"--is a dangerous line of reasoning to engage in--and yes, it is deeply offensive.

I appreciate the effort, but I have to say it didn't work well as you expected.

It worked perfectly for me, frankly. Thank you for your understanding.

I posted the "controversial" idea to illustrate the absurdity of the mindset's counterpart on the other side. If that "conclusion" I gave is offensive...then, observe the accusations leveled against those of my point of view, to the effect that we want to limit and/or suppress women, or that we see women's foremost purpose as spouses, etc. I simply took those frankly rediculous concepts and showed the mirror duplicate--what such an attitude would look like on my side.

I was, in effect, demonstrating absurdity by being absurd.

Only, not very well. You might have a point if I said anything against the character of Ezri, but I never did. You are building a false comparison.

Nor did I suggest that you did; what I am addressing is nonsense like this:

You'll also notice that I will not engage everyone in this debate, because I can recognize the difference between a simple dislike of the character, and a backward attitude about women's role that I don't particular care for.

Once again, iguana, you assume too much about the "real" reason people like Shran don't care for Jadzia. I would contend you are not as capable of such recognition as you would have us believe.

(Which, I cannot help but notice, is what people do when they know they can't defend their own position any more, but let's not dwell on it.)

On the contrary--let's dwell on your reasoning for a moment. To be blunt, it is hasty generalizations about the other side--and ad hominem accusations of sexism and "backwards thinking"--that is an indication of an indefensible position--and desperation. You will note that we have not levvied accusations of sexism against those who have attacked Ezri in that manner. With my satirical remark aside, I do not believe we have attacked the posters at all. We have attacked positions, not people.

A couple of people targeted some criticism at the character of Ezri (mostly, that she's "whiny"), but you'll find they are in the minority: most people who like Jadzia better do it because "she would be fun to be around", not because they particularly despise Ezri.

And my quarrel is not with the majority.

On the other hand, you'll find plenty of people praising Ezri by specifically bashing Jadzia, claiming that a woman with such an attitude is "arrogant", "using and manipulating men", "self-absorbed", "ball-busting". "hard-charging, gung-ho, hoorah Amazon.". And that's only in the first page.

That is the point of the argument, and the reason for my disappointment.

The reason for my dissapointment is the assumption that those who do not like Jadzia for those reasons must have something wrong with them--that they are "sexist", that they are "backwards", that they want to suppress freedom for women.

And frankly...instead of attacking the messenger, perhaps it would be best to keep things about the subjects being discussed.

 

[iguana_tonante]

The reason for my dissapointment is the assumption that those who do not like Jadzia for those reasons must have something wrong with them--that they are "sexist", that they are "backwards", that they want to suppress freedom for women.

And frankly...instead of attacking the messenger, perhaps it would be best to keep things about the subjects being discussed.

But what you dismiss as ad hominem are the core of the issue here. Are you really gonna argue that the issue of what is acceptable for a woman is not the underlying issue of the criticism of Jadzia? People can't say "I dislike Jadzia because she's an arrogant bitch who doesn't know her place" (paraphrasing) and then act all surprised and offended because people interpreted their comments as "sexist and backward", because, well, they are.

Let me refresh your memory about how her character was described in this very thread:

using and manipulating men
arrogant, self-absorbed and ball-busting
hard-charging, gung-ho, hoorah Amazons.
disrespectful towards men
aloof
hard-core man-izer (counterpart to "womanizer")
"cool girl" who is "in control" and "self-reliant", to the extent of considering herself "above" men.
"Party Girl"
bitchy know-it-all
arrogant
her usual arrogant self
an arrogant know it all
Jazdia was a one night stand if you like those sort of things
condescending, arrogant and self-absorbed
aloof and vapid
a sorority girl who plays with swords
constantly into one-upsmanship
feels the need to make light of others

If you don't see the mysoginy in that kind of comments, the disapproval for not conforming to a a nurturing, vulnerable and passive role, I don't know what else I can do.

"you're a sexist and you don't even realize it" or "you're feelign guilty about being a man and you don't even realize it"--is a dangerous line of reasoning to engage in--and yes, it is deeply offensive.

Again, you are building a false comparison. I'm making my argument using what people actually said in this thread. You are making stuff up. I'm sorry you are offended by it, but evidences doesn't care one way or the other. They just are.

 

[Deckerd]

I think it's par for the course, iguana, if anyone suggests the justification for their preferences sound a little suspect. There's nothing wrong with finding one character more appealing than another, in fact that's what an awful lot of threads on this board are all about. I'm quite happy with people saying Ezri is immensely more appealing/sexier/more fun to them than Jadzia (or vice versa, since Jadzia seems to be winning) because that's a natural human response. It's the justification some people are giving for this preference that is interesting.