Game of Thrones 1.7 - "You Win or You Die" - Rate and discuss
- Thread starter Out Of My Vulcan Mind
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Not really spoilers, this, it's more just background information that the show hasn't really been able to give thus far. Still, consider this a warning if you're twitchy about getting extra info.
Anyway, keep in mind that Renly is still on Westros, and Stannis is not. With his charisma, it's much easier for him to raise Baratheon troops, and those of House Baratheon's bannermen. Add to this his relationship with Ser Loras Tyrell, and the Tyrell's rule Highgarden in the South. Together, those two houses are arguably the match of the Lannisters.
I wanted to ask WHY isn't Stannis on Westeros and where is he, but wiki helped me out, that he holds Dragonstone off the cost of Westeros (the ancient castle of the Tangaryns). Did I get right?
And without spoilers please who is with who?
Lannisters-rich, evil guys, I get that.
The Starks and the Baratheons beat down the Greyjons, so they are not much of an isuse?
The crazy lady in the Eerie obviously hates Lannisters, so I assume her support would be on the Starks side?
Ed Stark wanted Stannis Baratheon to be the king, but Renly wants the throne for himself, and he can expect the support of the Tyrells?
Littlefinger is very amoral, and he had a crush on Stark's brother's wife (why should we care about that?), and would've supported Stark had he done the sneaky thing (and abducted Cersei and Joffrey), but since he chose the hard thing, he went ahead and betrayed him.
What about the Snake? (the bald eunuch guy) who is he with?
Is there anyone else on Westeros whom I should be aware of?
Is there any relevancy to the fact that the Watch's Commander is the father of Jorah? (the guy who is with the Tangaryns)
If the Mountain and his brother hate each other that much, I assume his brother (his name escapes me) won't side with the Lannisters?
Bingo.
Stannis Baratheon is the Lord of Dragonstone, while Renly Baratheon is the Lord of Storm's End. Storm's End is basically the home of House Baratheon - like Winterfell is for the Starks.
Dragonstone, by contrast, was a Targaryen land which the Baratheons got when Robert seized the throne.
The Lannisters were also involved in beating down the Greyjoys. Jaime has referred to his part in this war a few episodes ago. Since the rebellion that put Robert on the throne, Greyjoy's Rebellion was been the only war to happen in the realm. It was basically the Greyjoys alone versus Robert and his allies.
That was ten years ago, though, and Theon was taken as a young boy basically as a hostage for the continued fealty of his father.
The crazy lady is Lysa, the sister of Catelyn, Eddard Stark's wife. You're right that she hates the Lannisters and is a little... ah... unstable.
Correct.
To Eddard, however, it's not a choice. Robert Baratheon has no legitimate sons, so the crown must pass to his brother Stannis. Renly is the younger of Robert's two brothers, so he cannot be Robert's successor.
House Tyrell are a great house, equivalent to the Lannisters, Starks or Greyjoys, and they rule over a fertile area of Westeros known as Highgarden.
We should care because that crush hasn't gone away.
Lord Varys?
That's a very good question.
Right now, sort of.
Catelyn, Ned Stark's wife, is the daughter of Lord Hoster Tully. The Tullys, like the Starks, Greyjoys, Lannisters and Tyrells, are one of the great houses of Westeros. They rule the Riverlands, which is where Tyrion was arrested by Catelyn. She was able to do this with Tully bannermen by reminding them of their oath to her father. As a consequence, this is also the place the Mountain has been butchering which caused Ned Stark to go send an army to seize him.
There's other players in this game, but the Tullys are the only ones - besides the guys we've just covered - you need to keep an eye on.
Well, it would explain why the current ruler of the Mormont lands is a woman.
The Mountain is Gregor, and the Hound is Sandor. Sandor hates Gregor, not the Lannisters.
^ The Greyjoys aren't an issue right now, but they aren't exactly happy with their place in Westros, either.
Lysa is a bit crazy, yeah. She's less concerned with the greater politics of the world, and more worried about keeping her son and the Eyrie\Vale safe.
Yeah, Renly is supported primarily by the Tyrell's, but he's also very charismatic, and can bring people to his cause easily.
The main thing with Littlefinger is that he's always been in love with Catelyn Stark, and that tends to colour a lot of his actions.
Varys (actually the Spider, not the Snake) isn't really "with" anyone. He's from Pentos (or one of the other Free Cities, can't remember for sure), and basically just looking out for his own interests.
The Lord Commander, like everyone in the Night's Watch, revoked all his ties to his house and family when he took the black, so there's not really anything to that family connection.
And yeah, that's pretty much the major players in Westros for the time being.
Lysa is a bit crazy, yeah. She's less concerned with the greater politics of the world, and more worried about keeping her son and the Eyrie\Vale safe.
Yeah, Renly is supported primarily by the Tyrell's, but he's also very charismatic, and can bring people to his cause easily.
The main thing with Littlefinger is that he's always been in love with Catelyn Stark, and that tends to colour a lot of his actions.
Varys (actually the Spider, not the Snake) isn't really "with" anyone. He's from Pentos (or one of the other Free Cities, can't remember for sure), and basically just looking out for his own interests.
The Lord Commander, like everyone in the Night's Watch, revoked all his ties to his house and family when he took the black, so there's not really anything to that family connection.
And yeah, that's pretty much the major players in Westros for the time being.
Yes, that's right.
Theon Greyjoy is a ward/hostage of the Starks to keep House Greyjoy in line.
Well, she's crazy, so she's not exactly someone to be counted on.
Varys is the Spider. His game plan isn't really known yet, although there's plenty of speculation.
There's another major house, House Martell, who preside over the southern-most part of Westeros. They haven't been introduced in the TV series yet, but will become important later.
The Clegane brothers are both Lannister henchmen. The Mountain does Tywin's bidding, while the Hound is essentially Joffrey's bodyguard.
He's from Lys.
S
Stone_Cold_Sisko
Guest
FYI - "Stark's brother's wife" is actually Catelyn, Ned's wife.
Catelyn was supposed to marry Ned's brother originally, but he died during the war with the Mad King and she ended up marrying Ned.
Littlefinger grew up with Catelyn and had a thing for her, and challenged Ned's brother to a fight that he lost badly.
Yeah but is Ned's brother alive? Is the wife alive? Where are they?
Yeah but Gregor is the Lannister's greatest "weapon". Isn't friend of my enemy is my enemy?
Ned's brother is long dead. Catelyn is very much alive. She's the one who took Tyrion prisoner. She's currently at the Eyrie with her sister (the crazy one).
The brothers have personal enmity, but they're both sworn bannermen of House Lannister.
Wait. So is Littlefinger's crush on Ned's wife (I know who Catelyn is), or on Ned's dead brother's wife? I assumed the first, but then during the lesbian sex scene he mentioned that the husband is long dead.
EDIT:
Now I see. So did LF betray Ned because he chose "unpractically", or because he wants to steal Catelyn?
Oh, I thought he was with the king (Baratheon house). I missed that.
btw, at the end of this ep, was it the Mountain (I though as such) or the Hound standing beside the throne?
I think you're looking at a "a little of column A, a little of column B" situation, there.
Incidentally, if you remember the scene between Jaime and Ned where Jaime talks about the horrible death that Ned's brother and father had right there in the throne room... that's the brother we're talking about. He was Ned's elder brother, and thus would have been Lord of Winterfell and husband to Catelyn Tully had he survived.
But he died so suddenly in such a grisly way, and so Ned gets to be Lord of Winterfell and husband to Catelyn Tully.
Your confusion about the Hound seems apt, though, as that's something the Lannisters play with themselves. Remember, we just heard Joffrey called 'of House Baratheon and Lannister'. This is a highly unusual formulation, as you don't usually include the mother's house as part of one's title.
There are certainly Lannisters who serve the Crown directly - like Lancel Lannister did, that blond squire Robert liked to mock and who served him his wine - but a Lannister's a Lannister.
But he died so suddenly in such a grisly way, and so Ned gets to be Lord of Winterfell and husband to Catelyn Tully.
That was the Hound. As I mentioned upthread, the Mountain has been off pillaging the Riverlands.
Your confusion about the Hound seems apt, though, as that's something the Lannisters play with themselves. Remember, we just heard Joffrey called 'of House Baratheon and Lannister'. This is a highly unusual formulation, as you don't usually include the mother's house as part of one's title.
There are certainly Lannisters who serve the Crown directly - like Lancel Lannister did, that blond squire Robert liked to mock and who served him his wine - but a Lannister's a Lannister.
HBO has an "I Made the Eight" T-shirt on sale here.
Concerning that... I assumed the "eight" was the 7 kingdoms, plus king's landing. yet the shirt shows essos too...
Catelyn was in love with Ned's brother and would have married him had he not died. When Ned's brother died, Catelyn married Ned. It's Catelyn that Littlefinger has long been in love with.
Much is yet to be revealed about Littlefinger's motives at this point in the TV series. To divulge more would be to get into spoilers from the subsequent books.
That was the Hound.
That was Sandor Clegane, the Hound. He was wearing his dog's head helmet. Gregor Clegane, the Mountain is still currently out raiding in the Riverlands (Ned ordered men to go put a stop to him last episode.)
And to clarify the whole Ned's brother thing, it was his older brother Brandon that Catelyn had been betrothed to before he was killed by the Mad King (along with their father.) Ned's younger brother, Benjen, is the ranger in the Night's Watch and is currently missing beyond the Wall (we saw his riderless horse return to Castle Black this episode.)
HBO has an "I Made the Eight" T-shirt on sale here.
Concerning that... I assumed the "eight" was the 7 kingdoms, plus king's landing. yet the shirt shows essos too...
The 8 are the 7 Kingdoms plus the Riverlands.
Yeah the shirt is incorrect. Essos is not part of the "eight". The 8th is the riverlands (Tully territory), which has not been an independent kingdom in recent history, so it is not counted as one of the 7 kingdoms.