Game of Thrones 1.7 - "You Win or You Die" - Rate and discuss
- Thread starter Out Of My Vulcan Mind
- Start date
I think it's measured from the wall to the tip of Dorne but I am not completely sure.
Huh, I can see that working. Good call.
Checkmate
Commodore
I have a sincere question: What the hell is up with the Wall?
I mean, all it does is block the land. How is it holding anything back, let alone cunning tactical masterminds like these "White People" or whatever they're called? There's two huge, gaping openings on either side of the wall where a simple doggy paddle can get you across. Or what, people who bury themselves in the snow for lengthy periods of time can't handle a little cold water?
Ditto for the "wildlings" who are clearly just as intelligent as everyone else, so they can build a boat with little problem.
I just don't get it. How is a worthless wall that's only blocking a tiny little area keeping all these people out? Especially when you look at the maps and see how short a swim/boat ride would be necessary.
I mean, all it does is block the land. How is it holding anything back, let alone cunning tactical masterminds like these "White People" or whatever they're called? There's two huge, gaping openings on either side of the wall where a simple doggy paddle can get you across. Or what, people who bury themselves in the snow for lengthy periods of time can't handle a little cold water?
Ditto for the "wildlings" who are clearly just as intelligent as everyone else, so they can build a boat with little problem.
I just don't get it. How is a worthless wall that's only blocking a tiny little area keeping all these people out? Especially when you look at the maps and see how short a swim/boat ride would be necessary.
The Wall is like Storms End. There is magic woven into it that makes it difficult for magical things from crossing it. Meaning the Others (White Walkers) and Wights have a hard time breaching it.
Checkmate
Commodore
But they don't have to "breach" it.
The map shows all kinds of places to just go around it. The tiny little area of water to the west of it is the easiest, but the distance between the Frosen Shore, Bear Island, and the little peninsula there is another easy looking spot.
The map shows all kinds of places to just go around it. The tiny little area of water to the west of it is the easiest, but the distance between the Frosen Shore, Bear Island, and the little peninsula there is another easy looking spot.
It's a wall.
Walls aren't perfect, impenetratable defenses that make it impossible for someone to get to the other side. They do, however, make it harder, particularly if they're manned by an army.
That's kind of why things like Hadrian's Wall (the obvious inspiration) and the Great Wall of China exist.
The Night's Watch's job would clearly be a lot harder without a wall, clearly. I also vaguely recall something about some naval stuff or at least a port where the Watch was involved, as far as ships go.
Walls aren't perfect, impenetratable defenses that make it impossible for someone to get to the other side. They do, however, make it harder, particularly if they're manned by an army.
That's kind of why things like Hadrian's Wall (the obvious inspiration) and the Great Wall of China exist.
The Night's Watch's job would clearly be a lot harder without a wall, clearly. I also vaguely recall something about some naval stuff or at least a port where the Watch was involved, as far as ships go.
Checkmate
Commodore
Yes, I know it's a wall. What I don't get is why anyone thinks its really helping when there's gaping vulnerabilities. At least the Great Wall of China would require massive travel (it's over 5,500 miles wide). This one is a fraction of the size, and is allegedly holding back highly magical, intelligent, and cunning enemies who... can't cross a tiny bit of water despite most of the region existing on that same side of the wall.
It's like Americans building a wall from the Seattle the Great Lakes, then just expecting it to protect you from the monsters in Quebec.
It's like Americans building a wall from the Seattle the Great Lakes, then just expecting it to protect you from the monsters in Quebec.
I'm not sure Wights are the best of reasoners either, I mean aren't they effectively zombies? Meaning if they come to a blank expanse of wall, they're not necessarily going to think "Oh, we'll just pop to Bear Island" so much as just... stop.
Well, the White Walkers can't physically pass south of the wall, in any place.
Wildlings can pass and they do it by all means necessary, including climbing over the wall. Their raidings actually pose a big problem in the region near the wall and Night's Watch is not large or strong enough to deal with all of them.
Wildlings can pass and they do it by all means necessary, including climbing over the wall. Their raidings actually pose a big problem in the region near the wall and Night's Watch is not large or strong enough to deal with all of them.
I didn't say the wall was impassable. Or that it lacked vulnerabilities.
I said it was a wall.
A wall is more defendable than a plain. As you've observed, a wall makes a passage by sea more likely - narrowing the amount of options available for an invasion by the White Walkers.
Or if you think that not having a wall outweighs the benefits of having one, I'd be interested in hearing why. The wall is a defensive structure that makes the job of the Night's Watch easier, it doesn't do their job for them.
The waterways are probably better protected than the Wall since you have the Greyjoy fleet on the one coast and Stannis Baratheon's on the other. Small numbers of wildlings could likely use the waterways to get past the Wall (just as small numbers get through the Wall itself at its weak points), but the wildlings are a rag-tag culture without the capacity to build ships and stage an invasion by water en masse. As for the ancient supernatural threats that are starting to reassert themselves, they aren't of a nature to be seafaring.
You are thinking to literally. Magic is symbolic. The Wall represents a line they can't cross. It's interesting to note that the first time the Wights do get through the Wall is when the Night's Watch mistakenly carry them through it.
The Wall, Magic, Dragons, The Others, Wights and the off kilter seasons are all tied together somehow.
No,Wights are not Zombies. Zombies are automatons. Wights are smart.
I know the Others are thinking beings, but I re-read the books recently and I'm sure I remember something to the effect of the Wights being not much more than reanimated corpses. I don't think there's much evidence in their behaviour that they're actively smart, anyway.
If it really is that easy then don't you think the people south of the wall would do something about it? I don't know... say sea patrols or having war ships around the edges or sea forts or whatever? Or maybe send patrols in to the north that would notice a giant army heading south or building a fleet and warn everyone else? Oh wait, that's exactly what they do. Benjen Stark was on a ranging when he disappeared.
It's not actually that easy to build enough ships to send an army around a wall even if the waters were totally unprotected, and this isn't like a video game where the crossing would happen in minutes in calm seas. I think they mention that the waters are treacherous and filled with obstacles, so you hit a storm or some reef during your journey and you might lose your army to the sea. If a patrol boat see's you, there will be a superior fleet waiting before you make landfall. You make landfall and the forces in the south will have likely sent troops. Yeah... that sounds just as easy as just marching down south... what a stupid wall!
Also consider what their sea-faring skill might be at. You might say, hey why not just sail far enough out to sea to get around the treacherous underwater rocks and patrols? Might as well ask why they don't just fly in on jets. Consider maybe their sailing skills aren't on that level.
The Wall is there to stop armies not to stop a few raiders on boats or to stop a few from climbing up the wall. In fact I think they say the wall was originally built to stop the monsters and it just happens to stop the wildlings now. That's kind of why no one gives a crap now and they have such a hard time finding people for the wall.
The white walkers and the wights, we don't know anything about so we don't know what their capabilities or motivations are as of yet but it's safe to assume that they might be different than internet posters in the here and now.
When the Wights attacked Castle Black they deliberately feigned "death" to sneak into the castle. They then caused a distraction and went straight for Commander Mormont's chambers. That's intelligent and why they are called Wights instead of Zombies.
Or, they're called wights instead of zombies because GRRM based his world-building on European medieval folklore rather than Haitan
I'm not sure I'd interpret that scene quite the way that you do (another possibility is that the Others were controlling them), but at this point I'll agree with Capt. Vulcan
Checkmate
Commodore
The very first episode would suggest otherwise.
And they were clearly shown to be intelligent, clever, and cunning.
I don't recall ever hearing any mention of such a thing. And patrols are easy to slip past by anyone with half a brain, regardless.