Game of Thrones 1.7 - "You Win or You Die" - Rate and discuss

[danellis]

I have a feeling Boromir/Ned wont get out of this situation unharmed. Last time it was the King who saved him, now he is all alone in there.
It was also a shame to see more of Ned's man die in that throne room. Looks like the whole idea of beeing kings hand brough him nothing but trouble.

I assume you refer to Sean Bean as Boromir/Ned because he played Boromir in Lord of the Rings, rather than Boromir being a name for him in this series? If that *is* the case, should it not be Sharpe/Boromir/Ned?

My reading of it was that he knew along that being King's Hand would be more trouble than it's worth but he's such an honourable guy he felt obliged to do it anyway?

dJE

 

[Kegg]

^
Not entirely. Ned Stark knew the job would be more trouble than it's worth, but he was also told that Jon Arryn, his predecessor as Hand of the King, had been murdered. That was in the first episode, the message that Catelyn recieved from her sister Lysa, who was Arryn's wife.

Ned was fostered at the Eyrie, as was Robert Baratheon. He, Robert and Jon fought the war to get the crown together. It does actually matter to him if someone's going around murdering people he likes, to accepts the job as Hand of the King because that's the one way he can get to the bottom of why Jon Arryn died.

 

[JD]

Yeah but is Ned's brother alive? Is the wife alive? Where are they?

Ned's brother is long dead. Catelyn is very much alive. She's the one who took Tyrion prisoner. She's currently at the Eyrie with her sister (the crazy one).

Wait. So is Littlefinger's crush on Ned's wife (I know who Catelyn is), or on Ned's dead brother's wife? I assumed the first, but then during the lesbian sex scene he mentioned that the husband is long dead.

EDIT:
Now I see. So did LF betray Ned because he chose "unpractically", or because he wants to steal Catelyn?

Yeah but Gregor is the Lannister's greatest "weapon". Isn't friend of my enemy is my enemy?

The brothers have personal enmity, but they're both sworn bannermen of House Lannister.

Oh, I thought he was with the king (Baratheon house). I missed that.

btw, at the end of this ep, was it the Mountain (I though as such) or the Hound standing beside the throne?

Darth Dave, I'm starting to get the feeling you might want to check out the book(s). It lays all of this out pretty clearly in several scenes throughout at least the first 250p. That's where I am right now, and it's come up two or three times already.

 

[diankra]

A good starting point in all the politics is that Westeros was formed from seven kingdoms that were conquered by the Taegeryons. Robert Barethyon became king when the mad king was overthrown and killed, but the other six houses all have claims on the throne (and they're pretty much all as valid, the only difference is how ruthlessly they want to pursue them). So that's the Starks, Lannisters, Tullys, and so on.
As the title sequence map makes a lot clearer than the one in the books, the series is an echo of English history from about 1100 to 1500, but as if the invader kings (like the Normans or the earlier Danes) were totally gone (or rather, totally overseas), and the native(-ish) dynasties were still around and intact and infighting. But don't take any parallel too literally - it's just a good excuse for fighting, wenching, backstabbing and good storytelling!

 

[Kegg]

A good starting point in all the politics is that Westeros was formed from seven kingdoms that were conquered by the Taegeryons. Robert Barethyon became king when the mad king was overthrown and killed, but the other six houses all have claims on the throne (and they're pretty much all as valid, the only difference is how ruthlessly they want to pursue them). So that's the Starks, Lannisters, Tullys, and so on.

Well, while the great houses are roughly equivalent in power, the extent to which they have any claims on the throne vary.

Viewers may have noticed this episode pretty much hinged on which Baratheon you want to put on the throne, for example. Clearly, the Lannisters want Joffrey. Renly is very keen on Renly. But Ned Stark only has eyes for Stannis.

Besides the Baratheons, of course, there's the previous dynasty, the Targaryens - right now Daenerys and her unborn son Rhaego. They too have a claim to the throne, which we just saw Khal Drogo enthusiastically embrace.

But putting a Baratheon or a Targaryen on the Iron Throne is one thing, trying to put someone from neither house... would be something else entirely, as their claim would be a lot weaker.

In fact, Robert Baratheon became king because he is distantly related to the Targaryens, which was basically better then nothing after you'd made a point of killing most of the Targaryen family.

But yes, the analogy to English history is pretty blatant, although I also felt that was true in the books. Lancaster and York, Lannister and Stark, er...

 

[Cypher]

Great show. One question I have is about the woman that was part of the group that attacked Bran and was being spoken to by Theon Greyjoy this episode. Is she a Wildling from the north? How did she get south of the wall? Are there gaps or other ways through? I got the impression that the only way through was by the gates at the Night's Watch.

Of course, if answering would be considered spoilers, then I can wait.

 

[Skywalker]

But yes, the analogy to English history is pretty blatant, although I also felt that was true in the books. Lancaster and York, Lannister and Stark, er...

But the Lancastrians won the Wars of the Roses...

Too bad they can't do DNA testing in Westeros. That would have saved everyone a whole lot of trouble.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Great show. One question I have is about the woman that was part of the group that attacked Bran and was being spoken to by Theon Greyjoy this episode. Is she a Wildling from the north? How did she get south of the wall? Are there gaps or other ways through? I got the impression that the only way through was by the gates at the Night's Watch.

She is a wildling. The Wall stretches across most of the continent and some of the Night's Watch posts along it are very poorly guarded because of a manpower shortage.

 

[Skywalker]

Right. There used to be, what, twenty(ish?) fully manned outposts stretching from one end of the Wall to the other, but as time went by and the fear of the Others dwindled, so too did the Night's Watch. By the time of GoT, only three keeps remain: Castle Black, their main fortress, which is in the center, the Shadow Tower at the far western end, and Eastwatch-by-the-Sea which is, unsurprisingly, at the eastern end.

 

[Cypher]

Ah i see. Thanks for the explanation. I do recall they mentioned their manpower shortage a few eps ago, but I thought there was only 1 access point.

 

[Aeolusdallas]

Great show. One question I have is about the woman that was part of the group that attacked Bran and was being spoken to by Theon Greyjoy this episode. Is she a Wildling from the north? How did she get south of the wall? Are there gaps or other ways through? I got the impression that the only way through was by the gates at the Night's Watch.

Of course, if answering would be considered spoilers, then I can wait.

The Knight's Watch is seriously undermanned, They don't have enough people to man all of their castles, guard all of their gates or keep the wall properly maintained.

 

[Canadave]

Ah i see. Thanks for the explanation. I do recall they mentioned their manpower shortage a few eps ago, but I thought there was only 1 access point.

Yeah, as others have mentioned, there are twenty castles. At the start of the story, the Night's Watch has roughly 1,000 men, with about 500 at Castle Black, and the remainder split between Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower. Given that The Wall is over 1500 kilometres long, you can see how it's pretty easy to slip past if you know the weak points.

 

[JD]

Yeah, the AGT book says that there are either one man for every 3 miles or 3 men for every mile, I can't remember which it was for sure.
EDIT: I just looked the NW up on wikipedia and it has this list of the 20 castles

• Westwatch-by-the-Bridge
• The Shadow Tower
• Sentinel Stand
• Greyguard
• Stonedoor
• Hoarfrost Hill
• Icemark
• The Nightfort (the oldest and largest)
• Deep Lake
• Queensgate (formerly known as Snowgate)
• Castle Black
• Oakenshield
• Woodswatch-by-the-Pool
• Sable Hall
• Rimegate
• The Long Barrow
• The Torches
• Greenguard
• Eastwatch-by-the-Sea

 

[Canadave]

^ Three for every mile, I would imagine. The Wiki of Ice and Fire says The Wall is over 300 leagues long, which works out to 900 miles.

 

[Darth_Daver]

Ned's brother is long dead. Catelyn is very much alive. She's the one who took Tyrion prisoner. She's currently at the Eyrie with her sister (the crazy one).

Wait. So is Littlefinger's crush on Ned's wife (I know who Catelyn is), or on Ned's dead brother's wife? I assumed the first, but then during the lesbian sex scene he mentioned that the husband is long dead.

EDIT:
Now I see. So did LF betray Ned because he chose "unpractically", or because he wants to steal Catelyn?

The brothers have personal enmity, but they're both sworn bannermen of House Lannister.

Oh, I thought he was with the king (Baratheon house). I missed that.

btw, at the end of this ep, was it the Mountain (I though as such) or the Hound standing beside the throne?

Darth Dave, I'm starting to get the feeling you might want to check out the book(s). It lays all of this out pretty clearly in several scenes throughout at least the first 250p. That's where I am right now, and it's come up two or three times already.

Just ordered all of the books on ebay.

 

[Beagleman]

^ Three for every mile, I would imagine. The Wiki of Ice and Fire says The Wall is over 300 leagues long, which works out to 900 miles.

Whoa, looking at the map, that makes Westeros really damn huge, mind you I haven't read the books yet. From the series and the map I always imagined it to be more or less the length of europe from Norway to southern Italy, not this big.

 

[Shurik]

^ Three for every mile, I would imagine. The Wiki of Ice and Fire says The Wall is over 300 leagues long, which works out to 900 miles.

Whoa, looking at the map, that makes Westeros really damn huge, mind you I haven't read the books yet. From the series and the map I always imagined it to be more or less the length of europe from Norway to southern Italy, not this big.

I think GRRM said once that Westeros is about the size of South America.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

^^^
It's about the length of South America, but narrower.

 

[Shurik]

^^^
It's about the length of South America, but narrower.

Sounds right ... I also wonder if that includes the farthest parts of the North beyond the Wall. None of the maps in the books so far had any indication of where the North actually ends ...

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

The ratings for the seventh episode are in: despite overall viewership for the night being down 21% due to the holiday weekend and despite the episode being available early via HBO Go, the ratings nevertheless held steady with 2.4 million viewers for the initial airing and 3.2 million viewers including the first encore.