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Babylon 5 viewing order

The Drahk get better.

Good :)

Had a friend make a odd recommendation to me, said that what he recommended was since I was planning on re-watching it, once I finish season 4, skip season 5, watch "in the beginning" and start over, and watch season 5 after your 2nd view of b5...Is that a crazy idea or something worth thinking about?

To paraphrase what I said some ten or so pages back; keep it simple and just watch the damn show. Such suggestions and fussy little lists usually come with an agenda from the person recommending them to prejudice you for or against certain instalments.

As for your friend's idea, I'd say it'd add as much value to your viewing as standing on your head and working out the square roots of the first twenty prime numbers in reverse order. That is to say it'll be a colossal waste of time that isn't worth the headache.

LOL - I will politely inform the friend that I am not into that much complexity and just watch the series, then later on the movies and crusade.
 
Had a friend make a odd recommendation to me, said that what he recommended was since I was planning on re-watching it, once I finish season 4, skip season 5
No don't skip season five. There are several keys in the story that are not turned until then.

I know "Babylon 5" brought the novel to television, but its metastory, much like other arc-based shows, doesn't hold up after repeated viewings.
That's probably the silliest thing I've heard today. It's one of the few shows I watch from start to finish every time because its story does hold up.
 
That's probably the silliest thing I've heard today. It's one of the few shows I watch from start to finish every time because its story does hold up.
Well it's a matter of taste and opinion, of course. But I agree, B5 is my favorite show because it's the only one I've found where the metastory does hold up. Other contenders like BSG tend to work better on a per-episode basis.
 
I know "Babylon 5" brought the novel to television, but its metastory, much like other arc-based shows, doesn't hold up after repeated viewings.
That's probably the silliest thing I've heard today. It's one of the few shows I watch from start to finish every time because its story does hold up.

Not so silly to me.

When "Babylon 5" first aired, I thrilled to the metastory as it slowly revealed itself to the audience. But as the years wore on as did the repeated viewings and my taste for JMS's writing thinned, I've found more faults in the metastory and the storycraft.

Yes, the arc holds up in that all of the pieces amazingly fit together despite the changes JMS had to make along the way (Sinclair's departure, Taila out and Lyta back in, etc.).

There were some true surprises, such as the ending of Sinclair's storyline, but overall the metastory was derivative and a tad anti-climatic. And it could be argued that the metastory really climaxed with "Z'ha'dum" than it did with "Into the Fire" or "SPOILER TITLE".

The series was also more theatrical (stage, not film) than the gritty, realism that JMS initially promised pre-Gathering — i.e. "Hill Street Blues in Space." Perhaps that's why I enjoy aspects of the original cut of "The Gathering" more than the series proper.

Also, I was disappointed more writers didn't get to lend their unique voices to the series. JMS once called B5 the "Trek Grudge Show" where speculative-fiction writers, such as Ellison, Neil Stephenson and David Brin, could come in and tell stories they couldn't tell in the ModTrek format.

But that never happened and JMS took on writing the majority of the series, making the loops in the arc's chains smaller and smaller so that they were so tightly linked that it didn't allow for other voices to come in.

Characters tend to, after awhile, speak like JMS — like what Neroon says at the end of "Legacies" , "You talk like a Minbari, Commander." Well, it ended up more like "you talk like JMS, Commander." And, at times, characters functioned more due to plot than to character, say except for Londo, G'Kar and Deleen.

That is not to say that I don't enjoy "Babylon 5" anymore, but I don't see it with the same rosy-colored lens I did when the series first aired. I see the wrinkles in the writing a bit more than I used to. And I don't feel compelled to watch it from beginning to end anymore.

But I do admire JMS. He got to tell the story he wanted to, whether good or bad, and managed to do it in those five years even though it damn near killed him.
 
I guess I'll bite on a few points, even though you say "Yes, the arc holds up in that all of the pieces amazingly fit together" which is what I thought you were saying wasn't true.

and a tad anti-climatic. And it could be argued that the metastory really climaxed with "Z'ha'dum" than it did with "Into the Fire" or "SPOILER TITLE".
Well a climax is the middle of the story, by literary standards; the turning point. The end of the story is the denouement, the last major events and the resolution and moving on of the characters.

The series was also more theatrical (stage, not film) than the gritty, realism that JMS initially promised pre-Gathering — i.e. "Hill Street Blues in Space."
I don't think Joe was referring to the grittiness of Hill Street Blues when he was referring to that show as a roadmap of B5; he was referring to the fact that many character arcs would span multiple episodes and that the show would track the personal lives of the characters over time instead of just focusing on unrelated events in single episodes.

Characters tend to, after awhile, speak like JMS — like what Neroon says at the end of "Legacies" , "You talk like a Minbari, Commander." Well, it ended up more like "you talk like JMS, Commander."
Joe's speaking style is quite a bit less formal than any of the characters on the show I think.
 
I guess I'll bite on a few points, even though you say "Yes, the arc holds up in that all of the pieces amazingly fit together" which is what I thought you were saying wasn't true.

What I meant, and probably wasn't clear on in my first post, was that it doesn't hold up to repeated viewings.

and a tad anti-climatic. And it could be argued that the metastory really climaxed with "Z'ha'dum" than it did with "Into the Fire" or "SPOILER TITLE".
Well a climax is the middle of the story, by literary standards; the turning point. The end of the story is the denouement, the last major events and the resolution and moving on of the characters.

No, the climax is near the end of the story, the apex by literary and storytelling standards. Hence, why it's called the climax.

The climax does not occur dead in the middle of this story . It is not the turning point, which is where the direction of the story changes and builds toward the climax. And there can be more than one turning point in a story.

The climax is when the main conflict of the story comes to an end. It is either resolved or it isn't.

The denouement (or resolution or falling action) is the shortest part of the story and results in the end when the story stops.

The middle the longest.

It goes back to the Three Act Structure that's the oldest form of storytelling.

Yes, novels can be broken into five parts: Introduction, Rising Action, Complication, Climax and Denouement.

However, that can be roughly fit into the Three Act Structure as:

FIRST ACT:
Introduction
(inciting action that drives character into ...)

SECOND ACT (the longest):
Rising Action
Complication
(point of no return)

THIRD ACT (the shortest):
Climax
Resolution (or denouement)

As structured by JMS, season four is entirely climax to the series, but an argument could be made that "Z'ha'Dum" was really the climax of the metastory that had been building since season one with the shadows.

The series was also more theatrical (stage, not film) than the gritty, realism that JMS initially promised pre-Gathering — i.e. "Hill Street Blues in Space."
I don't think Joe was referring to the grittiness of Hill Street Blues when he was referring to that show as a roadmap of B5; he was referring to the fact that many character arcs would span multiple episodes and that the show would track the personal lives of the characters over time instead of just focusing on unrelated events in single episodes.

In several magazine interviews, JMS had promised a gritty realism, such as had been seen in "Hill Street Blues" and other contemporary shows, not the clean, antiseptic future as seen in TNG and "Space:1999".

That it would be a "lived-in" future with a much more naturalistic approach to the characters.

And yes he did use the "Hill Street Blues" model of character arcs spanning multiple episodes, but he didn't execute it in the same way. "Hills Street Blues" usually had three stories in one episode, one that was beginning, one that was in the middle and one that was ending. JMS tried to contain each story with its own beginning, middle and end in a singular episode, but would have tiny threads be picked up in later episodes.

Characters tend to, after awhile, speak like JMS — like what Neroon says at the end of "Legacies" , "You talk like a Minbari, Commander." Well, it ended up more like "you talk like JMS, Commander."
Joe's speaking style is quite a bit less formal than any of the characters on the show I think.

Not literally Joe's exact speech patterns but his writerly voice. The dialogue all had a sameness, or JMS's writerly voice. Certain dialogue ticks were passed on to all the characters, which gave it the appearance that they all sounded alike after a time.

Although, Londo really had his own voice from beginning to end.
 
As structured by JMS, season four is entirely climax to the series, but an argument could be made that "Z'ha'Dum" was really the climax of the metastory that had been building since season one with the shadows.
That would assume that the Shadows were the entire raison d'etre for the show, which they are not.
 
As structured by JMS, season four is entirely climax to the series, but an argument could be made that "Z'ha'Dum" was really the climax of the metastory that had been building since season one with the shadows.
That would assume that the Shadows were the entire raison d'etre for the show, which they are not.

The metastory was centered around them, since it consumes much of the introduction, rising action, complication and also the climax and resolution since it's about the fall out of that conflict. Hence, why I said the argument could be made ...
 
^ Not, it wasn't centred on the Shadows at all. They were the catalyst for change and a source of mystery early on, but they were never the centre or focus. The characters were always at the centre of the story. JMS was clear on this point right from the get go. It was about a five year period that changed the galaxy and the people at the centre of it all and how the change they brought changed them in return. The Shadows were a storm; first it was only on the horizon, then it came, and then it went. The point wasn't the storm itself but the people that endured it and whatever came next.
 
Every writing book I've ever read says place your climax as close to the end of the story as possible; the denouement should be as short as it can be!
 
^ Not, it wasn't centred on the Shadows at all. They were the catalyst for change and a source of mystery early on, but they were never the centre or focus. The characters were always at the centre of the story. JMS was clear on this point right from the get go. It was about a five year period that changed the galaxy and the people at the centre of it all and how the change they brought changed them in return. The Shadows were a storm; first it was only on the horizon, then it came, and then it went. The point wasn't the storm itself but the people that endured it and whatever came next.
It's in this regard that season 5 works best. Yes, a lot of the wiz-bang action is over in season 4, but most of the characters haven't reached the point they've clearly been building toward for years yet. Season 5 concludes these character arcs. And a few of the plot arcs as well. Is is perfect? No (though I blame that mostly on cancellation fear). But it's still better than anything else I've seen.
 
As structured by JMS, season four is entirely climax to the series, but an argument could be made that "Z'ha'Dum" was really the climax of the metastory that had been building since season one with the shadows.
That would assume that the Shadows were the entire raison d'etre for the show, which they are not.

The metastory was centered around them, since it consumes much of the introduction, rising action, complication and also the climax and resolution since it's about the fall out of that conflict. Hence, why I said the argument could be made ...

^ Not, it wasn't centred on the Shadows at all. They were the catalyst for change and a source of mystery early on, but they were never the centre or focus. The characters were always at the centre of the story. JMS was clear on this point right from the get go. It was about a five year period that changed the galaxy and the people at the centre of it all and how the change they brought changed them in return. The Shadows were a storm; first it was only on the horizon, then it came, and then it went. The point wasn't the storm itself but the people that endured it and whatever came next.


As always, Reverend you make a sound, compelling argument. I agree the show was really about the choices and responsibilities of the main characters, especially Londo and G'Kar, and how those choices shaped the universe.

Perhaps, centered was the wrong word. The characters were the heart of the Shadows storm.

However, the overarching story, the drumbeat, if you well, was the Shadows. The catalyst for the choices the characters made. As you put it, the were on the horizon, came and then went, but in their wake left destruction that the characters were still dealing with well into Season 5 and the spin-offs.

JMS said that "Babylon 5" (see note below) was future history of a period of five years (or ten going by the Sinclair outline) that shaped the universe. He wanted to tell a war story from the earliest winds of war to the war itself and to its aftermath, which is what the Shadows provided to the larger narrative of the piece.

The Shadow War (or Great War) provides the canvas by which to tell the character stories, like the War of The Ring did in "Lord of the Rings."

The Shadows provide the main conflict for the series, putting Clark in power and aiding Londo, and, as I said, it could be argued that that conflict climaxed in either "Z'ha'dum" or "Into the Fire."

Every writing book I've ever read says place your climax as close to the end of the story as possible; the denouement should be as short as it can be!

As Dennis would say, Absolutely Right TM.

NOTE: And before someone harps on me for using quotes instead of italics for book and show titles, I'm using AP style, which uses quotes all around, and because it's what I'm used to doing.
 
However, the overarching story, the drumbeat, if you well, was the Shadows. The catalyst for the choices the characters made. As you put it, the were on the horizon, came and then went, but in their wake left destruction that the characters were still dealing with well into Season 5 and the spin-offs.
I've always seen the Earth conflict as every bit as important as the Shadows in the B5 story.

In fact, if there was any part of the B5 story that caused me to have to intentianlly suspend disbelief, it was the whole getting ready for a war with superpowerful alien forces with very little in the way of proof.

Jan
 
In fact, if there was any part of the B5 story that caused me to have to intentianlly suspend disbelief, it was the whole getting ready for a war with superpowerful alien forces with very little in the way of proof.

To be fair, only Delenn, her supporters in the religious caste and the rangers actually believed it was coming at all. Indeed, a surprising number of parties weren't even directly involved. The warrior caste very pointedly stayed out of the whole thing, Earth had turned in upon itself while the Narn Regime had been neutralised thanks to the Centauri who were somewhat unwittingly running errands on the Shadow's behalf while they busied themselves with an unmanageable number of small border wars. Most of the actual fighting was done by the League worlds, most of whom already knew about the Shadows because most had already signed on with them not knowing everyone else had too.

As for the preparations; while "proof" was certainly thin on the ground, it was there for those that knew what to look for and where. Remember that the ranger's had been specifically tasked by Valen before he "left" to watch for the return of the Shadows; specializing in rumours and reports from distant places. He was even kind enough to provide a time frame for their return. Plus of course, at the end of the first season, Delenn had Lennier flat out ask Kosh if they'd returned (even this was *after* Morden and his two invisible friends set off her forehead implant alarm wotsit.)

Of course there is a certain amount of faith involved on Delenn's part, but at least some of the human characters saw enough with their own eyes (Sinclair & Garibaldi on Mars, Sheridan & the Icarus, Marcus and Arisia colony) to take the rest at Delenn's word. Not sure why Ivanova and Franklin were so accepting though. I suppose in Franklin's case he's always been open to the mysteries of unknown space and probably saw or at least heard a thing or two in his hitch-hiking days. As for Ivanova, I think the fact that she had to find out for herself what Sheridan, Garibaldi and Delenn were keeping quiet about was probably enough for her to take it seriously.

Of course this is all in hindsight; suspension of disbelief was probably a necessity the first time round (I honestly have a hard time remembering what the first viewing was like.) ;)

The Shadows provide the main conflict for the series, putting Clark in power and aiding Londo, and, as I said, it could be argued that that conflict climaxed in either "Z'ha'dum" or "Into the Fire."

No question. But if we're taking story mechanics here then that still leaves time for the "falling action" and the "denouement". As Jan points out the Earth Orwellian/civil war plot was just as important to ongoing story as the larger Shadow conflict. It starts right there in season one just as the hints of the Shadows did and continued right through to the respective conclusions and subsequent consequences developing similarly in parallel.

There's hints of the sinister changes back on Earth before the Shadows were even mentioned. There's the implication that Psi Corps was pulling EarthGov's strings behind the scenes in 'Mind War', a more draconian attitude towards off-world workers' rights in 'By Any Means Necessary', the growth of anti-alien sentiment in 'The War Prayer', loyalty scans in 'Eyes'...the list goes on.
 
Think of Babylon 5 as a 5 act play.

Season 1/Act 1 - Exposition (setting up everything)
Season 2/Act 2 - Rising action (The shadows appear, war drums begin.)
Season 3/Act 3 - Climax (the war and Sheridan goes to Z'Ha'dum)
Season 4/Act 4 - Falling action (the world is changed by those actions, and dealing with the remainders (such as Clark and kicking out the elders...)
Season 5/Act 5 - dénouement (All the action between falling action and the end)
 
Watched any more episodes in this play? You've been getting through it pretty fast, don't slow down now!
 
Watched any more episodes in this play? You've been getting through it pretty fast, don't slow down now!

Visiting family for the holiday, and none of them like Science fiction, Though I showed a clip to my mom of mira furlan since she a fan of hers from LOST and my mom was surprised on how young Mira looked in B5. Instead of watching B5 I been doing other important things like spending time with my mom and dad and tomarrow I will see my sister and my nephew. Of course, now I am sunburned from being on the boat with my dad...grrrr

After that, B5 watching will continue!
 
Well, I ordered the entire series on DVD (Yes)...now I will see if I get the widescreen that I ordered or the SD (Ordered the widescreen versions as I have access to the SD though Netflix.

getting back to normal here, so I will be watching some episodes, though tomorrow I have a viewing to go to..
 
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