Star Wars: Question on ROTS?
- Thread starter ReadyAndWilling
- Start date
Aside from the fact that the EU specifically said that it was not programmed by the Kaminoans, what put the lie to that theory in the first place was the fact that genetics simply don't work that way. You can't "genetically code" an order. Furthermore, assuming the order to be genetically coded seems to miss the point of the clone material in AOTC, which said explicitly that the genetic modification was to make the clones more docile and less independent so that they would follow any subsequent order. It was not the implantation of orders, it was to make the clones more receptive to orders in general.
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Order 66 almost certainly was not genetically programmed as EU sources tend to indicate. The synchronized almost-robotic manner in which they seem to carry out Palpatine's Order 66 in ROTS certainly makes it seem like it but according to EU sources like "Dark Lord", some clone troopers resisted the order and aided in the escape of some Jedi (they were even willing to receive punishment/execution for it), so it's pretty clear that they were not genetically compelled to do anything (or that they just luckily- for the Jedi- happened to be "defective"). TCW series further seems to indicate that the clone troopers, particularly the ones that live longer, seem to be capable of developing some measure of individuality and becoming more than just "human droids".
Well, not quite. The EU text of Order 66 (and the implication of Palpatine sending the order out to each unit himself) says that it needs to be personally issued by the Chancellor directly to the troops. IIRC, the clones in "Dark Lord" heard about the order third-hand, from someone who wasn't above them in their chain of command. They weren't defective or any more independent than any other clones. If they'd been in a position to receive the message from Papatine, they almost certainly wouldn't have hesitated.
I'll give Lucas a bit of leeway on the Order 66 thing. Not everything needs to be spelled out, including whether or not the order was a genetic thing or not. As long as Lucas himself knows.
They heard the order from clone commander Salvo, who was above them in the chain of command. They believed the order to be a mistake. They still questioned the order even after being told by the clone commander that it came from Palpatine himself. Later in the book Palpatine says that the source of the clones' insubordination is "Contagion. Contagion brought about by fighting alongside the Jedi for so many years." He also says "Sooner or later even a lowly trooper will become the sum of his experiences."
Flying Spaghetti Monster said:
What Lucas thinks about the situation is on display in AOTC: the clones are genetically modified in order to facilitate the intended result that they follow orders without question. The genetic modification and any later orders are explicitly two different things. The genetic modification is not itself an implantation of orders. We don't see robotic behavior in ROTS; what we see is amorally non-judgmental. The clones who fire on Obi-Wan don't hear anything about an "Order 66", they just hear "Blast him!" That isn't something that needs any kind of programming to be understood. The myth that the order is "genetically programmed" is only fanon which makes no actual sense in terms of real-world genetics. Also, the EU position that Order 66 was not programmed by the Kaminoans reflects the fact that they were not complicit in the plot to destroy the Jedi.
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ReadyAndWilling
Fleet Captain
maybe only the high ranking clones were following sideous?
ok, i'm just watching AoTC now and Dooku reveals everything. he says sideous is in control of the senate. why would he do that?
ok, i'm just watching AoTC now and Dooku reveals everything. he says sideous is in control of the senate. why would he do that?
Notice that Obi-Wan did not believe a word he said. Either Dooku was simply mocking him with an unbelievable truth, or he genuinely wanted Obi-an to join him and overthrow Sidious.
As for the clones, they were genetically modified to obey the orders of their superiors without question. "More docile," Lama Su said. As soldiers of the Republic their highest authority was the chancellor, even above their Jedi generals. When the chancellor ordered them to execute the Jedi they complied without question. It was not in their nature to question an order from their commander.
I have always taken from that scene that Dooku was mocking Obi-Wan with an unbelievable truth. He knew that the Jedi wouldn't be able to believe something as implausible as a Sith Lord controlling the government. This is a Jedi Order that was still coming to terms with the fact that the Sith were back. They also had done nothing to search for Maul's master after Obi-Wan killed him.
ReadyAndWilling
Fleet Captain
oh ok
Anakin does say in Episode III that Palpatine is the Sith Lord "they were looking for" suggesting that, even though we never saw it, the Jedi were searching for Sidious.
And in Episode II, Obi-Wan refers to Sidious by name (even though, in the film, he was never told Sidious's name) suggesting that some investigation has been done.
Dooku told him after capturing him...
ReadyAndWilling
Fleet Captain
what are some other episodes of the clone wars where we see the separatists more?
I got the impression that perhaps Dooku was hoping to destroy Sidious, and take Obi as his own apprentice, but was smart enough to try to sow some doubt if Obi didn't turn.
Dooku did seem to express genuine regret later when Mace and the Jedi were willing to fight to the death rather than surrender.
Of course, was this true, or just a stall to allow time for Yoda's rescue? After all, the plan was to start and drag out the Clone Wars so Palpatine could consolidate his power, and you can't do that if you wipe out the enemy's command structure in the first five minutes!
Oops, you are right. I stand corrected.
ReadyAndWilling
Fleet Captain
i just tried making a new thread based on the series:
okay, so i really love seeing the perspective from the Separatists and particularly, the droids. does anyone have a list of episodes i could check out to see what i'm looking for?
i'm watching Grievous Intrigue and wow, i'm really enjoying it. i loved seeing the commando droids taking on a jedi and the basic droids running low on paper in their walk.
i did a brief look on the episode list and this is what i found:
Weapons Factory: this one sounds decent because the separatists is working on a new tank. i'd love to see an episode where they're building a new droid.
ARC Troopers: seems to focus on grevious
Citadel Rescue: focuses on droids.
Citadel Rescue: not so sure about this one but it has a mention of droids.
okay, so i really love seeing the perspective from the Separatists and particularly, the droids. does anyone have a list of episodes i could check out to see what i'm looking for?
i'm watching Grievous Intrigue and wow, i'm really enjoying it. i loved seeing the commando droids taking on a jedi and the basic droids running low on paper in their walk.
i did a brief look on the episode list and this is what i found:
Weapons Factory: this one sounds decent because the separatists is working on a new tank. i'd love to see an episode where they're building a new droid.
ARC Troopers: seems to focus on grevious
Citadel Rescue: focuses on droids.
Citadel Rescue: not so sure about this one but it has a mention of droids.
Mas Amedda definitely knew. Wasn't he in the room when Palpatine threw Force-lightning at Yoda? I'm sure Palpatine's Red guards knew as well.
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