Hookers and blow. Everybody knows this.
Star Wars: Question on ROTS?
- Thread starter ReadyAndWilling
- Start date
Hookers and blow. Everybody knows this.
Not in the same sense as that one, but there are some episodes featuring Gunray.
ReadyAndWilling
Fleet Captain
oh ok, cool man.
which episodes deal with Gunray? it's interesting to see the perspective of the separatists.
Indeed. In TPM the Trade Federation had been chafing under heavy taxation and found their diplomatic solutions going nowhere. When a Sith Lord showed up one day offering them a chance to gain the upper hand by simply blockading and then invading Naboo, they took it. Sidious promised that he would take care of the bureaucratic side of things and they naively went along with his plan.
By AotC, the Trade Federation has been completely disgraced, though not broken. They are joined in their dissatisfaction with the Senate by the Techno Union, the Banking Clan, and many other corporations and guilds. At first their protest is diplomatic and disunited, but Count Dooku comes along, unites them, and sets them to work building an army. It is clear that the Separatists know that Dooku is working for Sidious (since in RotS they answer to Sidious directly after Dooku is killed), but they have no idea that he is actually Chancellor Palpatine.
The only people who knew that Sidious and Palpatine were one and the same were the Sith Lords, Maul and Dooku.
It was a brilliant plan, really, playing both sides in the war like that. No matter who lost, Palpatine wins.
Yep, the Trade Federation were so desperate for any kind of support for their blockade that they agreed to follow Darth Sidious's commands in return for whatever Sidious was going to give them...they had no clue they were being duped. Sidious was preying on their weak minds. Even Qui-Jon senses this to a degree when he boards the station.
ReadyAndWilling
Fleet Captain
thanks for the reply bro, very informative.
i thought palpatine was always looking for the clones to win? it seemed like he disliked the droid army.
1.)According to at least the novelization, Dooku is apparently aware that Sidious=Palpatine and even refers to him as "Chancellor" right before Anakin and Obi-Wan arrive. Their *plan* was to kill Obi-Wan and have Anakin capture Dooku alive and manipulate him into coming over to the Separatist side and helping establish a new Sith Army/Empire. Yeah, Dooku is shocked to hell and only realizes the depth of Sidious' actual plan at that final moment when Anakin bests him in their duel and Palpatine/Sidious orders Anakin to execute him then and there. I have my doubts as to Gunray or any of the other Separatists knew of Sidious' other identity. I do wonder why Gunray trusted Sidious again after having been "betrayed" by him at Naboo- though it might have something to do with Sidious ensuring that he was never successfully prosecuted for the TF invasion of Naboo.
2.)Too late. The Jedi were boxed in and the Clones would've turned on them via Order 66 had the Jedi displayed any overt signs of rebellion against Palpatine. Well, actually, that's what triggered Order 66 in the first place. I don't know that the Jedi would've ever allied with the Separatists though. They were still boosting the Republic and considered Palpatine an enemy of the state but would never have turned against the Senate/Republic- though Palpatine in the novelization tried to sow seeds in Anakin that the Jedi were maneuvering to take over the Republic and eliminating the Senate themselves.
3.)As others have said, there were new droids shown in the movie. It's hard to tell how close the Separatists were to achieving victory in the Clone Wars. Since the war was a sham anyway- rigged by Sidious- neither side could be gaining nor losing too much, so they were basically at a constant stalemate though it seemed in ROTS that the Republic had the upper hand. Despite the opening crawl, I never got the sense that the Separatists were ever that close to "victory" and actually I'm not really sure what their "victory" over the Republic might've looked like anyway.
4.) In the novelization, Mace was said to be utilizing a form of combat- Vapad- that "skirted" close to the dark side but I don't think he would've crossed over to the dark side by killing a Sith Lord while locked in mortal combat. Sidious had taken out three other Jedi masters as well. I'm having a hard time imagining how things might have unfolded had Mace succeeded- how the Jedi would've explained their killing of Palpatine. I don't know how and when the rumor about Mace possibly surviving the encounter started but I never actually believed his survival was even a possibility. Had he just had his hand chopped off and been thrown out the window, yeah, it's possible he might've survived but not after being blasted directly in the face (at close range) by that large amount of force lightning. He's dead as a doornail as far as I'm concerned. Don't know anything whatsoever about a connection to Lando Calrissian other than they're both black.
5.)There are a lot of things going on that DO raise a lot of questions. Matthew Stover's novelization of ROTS, as well as James Luceno's "Labyrinth of Evil" are both very well written and explain a LOT of things both from AOTC and ROTS that remain largely unanswered by just watching the movies and are highly recommended to check out. I would also recommend Luceno's "Dark Lord:The Rise of Darth Vader" for a nice companion to the other two books if you want to learn more about the immediate aftermath of Order 66 and the effects it had on some Jedi survivors and, more importantly, Vader's transition from "Anakin Skywalker" to the fearsome Sith Lord and henchman for the Emperor that we see in ANH.
2.)Too late. The Jedi were boxed in and the Clones would've turned on them via Order 66 had the Jedi displayed any overt signs of rebellion against Palpatine. Well, actually, that's what triggered Order 66 in the first place. I don't know that the Jedi would've ever allied with the Separatists though. They were still boosting the Republic and considered Palpatine an enemy of the state but would never have turned against the Senate/Republic- though Palpatine in the novelization tried to sow seeds in Anakin that the Jedi were maneuvering to take over the Republic and eliminating the Senate themselves.
3.)As others have said, there were new droids shown in the movie. It's hard to tell how close the Separatists were to achieving victory in the Clone Wars. Since the war was a sham anyway- rigged by Sidious- neither side could be gaining nor losing too much, so they were basically at a constant stalemate though it seemed in ROTS that the Republic had the upper hand. Despite the opening crawl, I never got the sense that the Separatists were ever that close to "victory" and actually I'm not really sure what their "victory" over the Republic might've looked like anyway.
4.) In the novelization, Mace was said to be utilizing a form of combat- Vapad- that "skirted" close to the dark side but I don't think he would've crossed over to the dark side by killing a Sith Lord while locked in mortal combat. Sidious had taken out three other Jedi masters as well. I'm having a hard time imagining how things might have unfolded had Mace succeeded- how the Jedi would've explained their killing of Palpatine. I don't know how and when the rumor about Mace possibly surviving the encounter started but I never actually believed his survival was even a possibility. Had he just had his hand chopped off and been thrown out the window, yeah, it's possible he might've survived but not after being blasted directly in the face (at close range) by that large amount of force lightning. He's dead as a doornail as far as I'm concerned. Don't know anything whatsoever about a connection to Lando Calrissian other than they're both black.
5.)There are a lot of things going on that DO raise a lot of questions. Matthew Stover's novelization of ROTS, as well as James Luceno's "Labyrinth of Evil" are both very well written and explain a LOT of things both from AOTC and ROTS that remain largely unanswered by just watching the movies and are highly recommended to check out. I would also recommend Luceno's "Dark Lord:The Rise of Darth Vader" for a nice companion to the other two books if you want to learn more about the immediate aftermath of Order 66 and the effects it had on some Jedi survivors and, more importantly, Vader's transition from "Anakin Skywalker" to the fearsome Sith Lord and henchman for the Emperor that we see in ANH.
@ReadyandWilling...I'm really not sure why you keep harping on the clones and droids thing. It's been explained to you already. The droids belonged to the Separatist army. They were pawns as well. The clones were designed to be the perfect canon fodder for the Republic Army who had no standing army. They also were meant to be the original storm troopers for when Palpatine instituted the Empire. It's not a matter of "disliking" the droids or "liking" the clones...Palps doesn't care either way. Both sides served their purpose.
About Order 66 - Is it intended to be just another order, that the clones knew of beforehand but did not follow until Palpatine commanded it, or was Order 66 a hidden genetic code of some kind that took over the clones instantly?
Since the clones were conditioned to obey the Jedi, would they not have felt obligated to *inform* said Jedi that there was an order like this, if the clones had knowledge of it?
Since the clones were conditioned to obey the Jedi, would they not have felt obligated to *inform* said Jedi that there was an order like this, if the clones had knowledge of it?
Set Harth might have a different answer for your question, but it is my understanding that the clones were not aware of Order 66 that it was "programmed" or "conditioned" into their genetic structure or memory and triggered on orders specifically from Darth Sidious. While the clones were indeed conditioned to obey the Jedi...the Jedi would have to have foreknowledge of Order 66 to ask the clones about it.
After the Jedi fell and the Empire was born how were the public told about where Darth Vader came from and the Emperor adopting the Sith way(publicly)?
I'm sure at first DV would have been reviled as Anakin and as the Hero who "exposed the Jedi rebellion" but after his lava bath I guess he was just presented as Vader the Dark Lord of the Sith,so I wonder how the Sith were explain to the regular guy on the street.
I'm sure at first DV would have been reviled as Anakin and as the Hero who "exposed the Jedi rebellion" but after his lava bath I guess he was just presented as Vader the Dark Lord of the Sith,so I wonder how the Sith were explain to the regular guy on the street.
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^I'm guessing Palpatine never officially "came out" as a Sith. I would bet the regular guy on the street would look at him and think, "Man, Palpatine got really creepy looking after the Jedi attacked him. I can understand how he hates them."
As for Vader, perhaps Palpatine did some spin control and claimed that the Sith is under his control, so Republic citizens don't have to worry about them. As for explaining where Vader came from, well, that I don't know.
As for Vader, perhaps Palpatine did some spin control and claimed that the Sith is under his control, so Republic citizens don't have to worry about them. As for explaining where Vader came from, well, that I don't know.
ReadyAndWilling
Fleet Captain
i think the clones knew all along. they obeyed the jedi and even befriended them as we saw in the two movies until Order 66. it must have been coded in them to be like:
primary: sideous
secondary: jedi, senators
so sideous over-rid the jedi in rank.
There's actually an interesting "Republic" comic (#78) set after ROTS that has Palpatine basically introduce Vader to the Republic (now Imperial) Starship captains. One of the Captains (A recurring character up to this point and friend of the Jedi) objects, and Vader of course chokes him, pretty much silencing the other Captains.
As for the Sith thing, I'm sure a lot of Palpatine's advisors and top commanders (Except, it seems, Tarkin who called Vader all that's left of their religion) probably knew, and I'm sure the rebels probably had their suspicions.
I think the full text of Order 66 is in one of the Traviss novels, but those have been contradicted by the Clone Wars series so I think they're now non-canon or something.
As for the Sith thing, I'm sure a lot of Palpatine's advisors and top commanders (Except, it seems, Tarkin who called Vader all that's left of their religion) probably knew, and I'm sure the rebels probably had their suspicions.
I think the full text of Order 66 is in one of the Traviss novels, but those have been contradicted by the Clone Wars series so I think they're now non-canon or something.
Yep. Of course, given how the TV show treats the novels as a great bubbling cauldron of ideas to be used or discarded in part or in full, there's no reason at the moment to say if this part "counts" or doesn't.
^ If it is true that some clones refused to follow Order 66, as that link indicates, that would seem to put the lie to the theory that it was genetically hard-coded.
S
Stone_Cold_Sisko
Guest
I've only watched most of the first video... BRILLIANT! It's hilarious and does a masterful job of dissecting the million logic and story holes in George Lucas' "script"
In just the open sequence!
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Glad u like it
Plinkett has ruined TPT - and TNG films - in a good way 
for me. I think some of the issues he has with RoTS are addressed in the deleted scenes. But ultimately would need a rewrite/reshoot/re-edit including deleted scenes to create the movie he thinks it could/should have been...
for me. I think some of the issues he has with RoTS are addressed in the deleted scenes. But ultimately would need a rewrite/reshoot/re-edit including deleted scenes to create the movie he thinks it could/should have been...
ReadyAndWilling
Fleet Captain
yah, i saw a little bit and didn't enjoy it.
seems like a really angry guy.
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