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Babylon 5 viewing order

The whole Minbari beard thing is an old fan theory that I'm pretty sure JMS has neither confirmed nor denied. It seams a bit of an odd assumption to me that a lack of beards must be evidence of alien DNA rather than something more likely...like razors? :p

JMS has mentioned that Minbari mailes can grow facial hair only, though it's not common. If he commented on the human DNA aspect, I don't find it.

Jan
 
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Interesting that out of the two races, the one dedicated to chaos and evolution through violence and conflict is the one that is the physically weaker of the two (relatively speaking of course.) Even at a technological level the Vorlons appear to have had the upper hand. While on the one hand the Vorlon Empire supposedly encompasses a huge swath of the galaxy, which they appear to be able to defend with an almost casual ease, while on the other hand the Shadows are repeatedly beaten back (or allow themselves to be beaten back) to a single world out of the very edge of the galaxy and are so poorly defended, primitive alien ships can land without doing much more than setting off the burglar alarm. Indeed, you have to wonder why they need to go into these prolonged states of hibernation (besides it being a plot contrivance of course.) Were they not able to crack immortality the way the Vorlons did?

Why would Shadows want to be immortal? The way I interpret it, they know there's no evolution or adaptation if they don't die off and reproduce, or at least meet with struggle and reinvent themselves on regular occasions. Added to that their philosophy that meaningful growth only occurs through conflict, war and pain, and it makes sense to me that they keep themselves somewhat vulnerable. I always assumed falling back was part of the plan, a way to keep themselves in the evolutionary game. :) The Vorlons aim for Order and a static perfection, thus they try to make themselves unchanging and perfect - "we have always been here". The Shadows, I assume, try to better themselves their own way - which involves struggle and trial by fire. Taking a hit to the face, leaping back and then coming back later, strengthened by the experience - all very Shadow. Let the stuffy, stagnant Vorlons gain immortality and invulnerability and thus become an evolutionary dead end! Perfect? Pah! All they've done is remove themselves from the natural order of things entirely! And they have the gall to think that wisdom? Leave the younger races in their hands? Madness! :)

I assumed the hibernation periods are a part of the agreement and work to the Shadows' advantage. The Vorlons spend centuries building up Order, encouraging co-opeation within a framework of Knowing Your Place, guiding the younger races towards a static "perfection", and then when the pieces are in place the Shadows return and gleefully aim to tear it all down, first undermining the Vorlons by getting the pieces to turn on each other and tear the Order down from the inside, and then just tearing into it themselves. I assume they actually want the younger races to put up a reasonable fight against them as well as against each other - it's when the younger races won't fight that the Shadows get enraged, unlike the Vorlons, who hate any sort of resistance to their whims. It's only when Sheridan started uniting all the young races against them that the Shadows decided they had to interfere and try to stop it. I assumed fighting back yourself is good - let's see if you're strong enough! - but relying on each other is "cheating" somehow, as it shows a disturbing tendency to choose order over chaos and ease life rather than encourage the conflicts needed to help a race grow as a people. :)

When the Shadows were driven back by the Minbari 1,000 years ago, I guess they were probably happy about it - "we've just inspired the Minbari to greatness! We're liberating them from Vorlon servitude by making them see that strength comes through conflict and struggle. They even gave us a bloody nose in the end - good for them. Now, let's retreat to our hibernation and learn from our experiences this time round. We'll reinvent ourselves next time".

I assumed that part of the reason for the name "Shadow" is that they originally altered themselves based on the Younger Races and not vice versa like the Vorlons. The Vorlons want to control and manage all the Younger Races. Whatever new cultures arise, the Vorlons go on being the same and trying to bend those races to their will. The Shadows, though, no doubt alter their behaviour with each new culture so as to find the best way to encourage conflict (like in the final debate, taking on different forms each time they approached Delenn to speak). They manipulate from behind, while the Vorlons dictate from in front. The Vorlons are the light everyone turns to, and the Shadows are the darkness constantly trying to turn them away. :)

So I think the Shadows probably keep themselves more vulnerable than the Vorlons deliberately, and I don't think that contradicts their desire to cultivate strength given that it's all about change and evolution. That's how I read it, anyway.
 
When the Shadows were driven back by the Minbari 1,000 years ago, I guess they were probably happy about it - "we've just inspired the Minbari to greatness! We're liberating them from Vorlon servitude by making them see that strength comes through conflict and struggle. They even gave us a bloody nose in the end - good for them. Now, let's retreat to our hibernation and learn from our experiences this time round. We'll reinvent ourselves next time".

I'm not sure. Justin said that in every war, there was some asshole who filled the role Sheridan did, uniting all sides against the Shadows. I don't think it was ever made explicit in the show, but in the comic "In Valen's Name," we found out that Valen had gathered several allies for the Minbari in addition to the Vorlons. I think if the Shadows had their way, they would stay in the background, stoking new wars with hidden strikes like they did to help the Centauri against the Narn, with no one ever really realizing they were a distinct nation, and ultimately returning back to their bases on the rim on their own to watch their handiwork. It's just that the stupid Vorlons had to keep coming every cycle and blowing the lid off of their operation, forcing the Shadows to move openly once the younger races found out that they were behind all the trouble that had suddenly started up and began trying to attack the Shadows directly. That's probably also what led to the Shadows recruiting their own younger-race intimates, like the Drakh.
 
When the Shadows were driven back by the Minbari 1,000 years ago, I guess they were probably happy about it - "we've just inspired the Minbari to greatness! We're liberating them from Vorlon servitude by making them see that strength comes through conflict and struggle. They even gave us a bloody nose in the end - good for them. Now, let's retreat to our hibernation and learn from our experiences this time round. We'll reinvent ourselves next time".

I'm not sure. Justin said that in every war, there was some asshole who filled the role Sheridan did, uniting all sides against the Shadows. I don't think it was ever made explicit in the show, but in the comic "In Valen's Name," we found out that Valen had gathered several allies for the Minbari in addition to the Vorlons. I think if the Shadows had their way, they would stay in the background, stoking new wars with hidden strikes like they did to help the Centauri against the Narn, with no one ever really realizing they were a distinct nation, and ultimately returning back to their bases on the rim on their own to watch their handiwork. It's just that the stupid Vorlons had to keep coming every cycle and blowing the lid off of their operation, forcing the Shadows to move openly once the younger races found out that they were behind all the trouble that had suddenly started up and began trying to attack the Shadows directly. That's probably also what led to the Shadows recruiting their own younger-race intimates, like the Drakh.

Good points. :)

And, now you make them, maybe that's why the Shadows "broke the rules" by approaching Sheridan and explaining their position, as well as the nature of the conflict. Maybe they were fed up with the Vorlons actively overstepping their bounds and trying to dominate the "teacher" position rather than let the Shadows do their stuff too. I always liked the idea that it was the Vorlons who soured the relationship, by being such control freaks; rather than do their thing and also let the Shadows give alternate "lessons", they refused to let the Shadows have equal billing. It did say the Minbari and co drove the Shadows back with the active help of the Vorlons, didn't it?

And of course the Vorlons then responded to the Shadows approaching Sheridan directly by breaking out the planet-killers. Very sporting of them.

I think I remember "In Valen's Name". That's the Tak'cha/Yolu stuff, right?
 
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A minor quibble, but I don't think it was the "Shadows' approaching Sheridan" that spurred the Vorlons' attack. Rather, it's my impression that the Vorlons' outright assault on Shadow-influenced worlds came about because of Sheridan's attack on Z'ha'dum itself. By causing such decimation, Sheridan forced the Shadows to regroup and pull-in their forces temporarily. That was the "unexpected opportunity"(sic) referred to by Ulkesh.
 
It did say the Minbari and co drove the Shadows back with the active help of the Vorlons, didn't it?

Yep, but the last time we heard about that in detail, it was the GoodFact version where the Shadows were an Evil Empire that had been trying to destroy the galaxy since the beginning of time, and the Vorlons and the rest of the First Ones banded together against them in the mists of prehistory, with the Vorlons staying behind to help protect the younger races from the Shadows after the rest of the First Ones ran away. In light of what we later learned, that history is... suspect.


I think I remember "In Valen's Name". That's the Tak'cha/Yolu stuff, right?

Yep. I wouldn't be surprised if the Narn were also involved in Valen's alliance to some degree. The show was kind of ambiguous about what their deal was before the Centauri got to them, at times suggesting that they weren't space-fairing, other times saying they had distant colony worlds before the occupation.
 
I was pretty explicitly established that any pretence of adhering to the rules of engagement went out the window a long time ago, which is what started this thousand year cycle. It's also established in the canon novels (and implied in the series) that there was no set time table for when the Shadows were to return. The Jeanne Cavelos novels has Kosh covertly monitoring Z'Ha'Dum space, keeping an eye out for any activity (which is how he was able to show Sheridan images of the Icarus's landing--he sat and watched the whole thing.) More to the point, the arrival of Icarus woke them up prematurely. Indeed, without getting too much into spoilers, the Psi Corps books and the short story says flat out that the Vorlons weren't ready either and their weaponized telepaths were still a number of generations away from what they wanted them to be.

I actually wonder where the whole "every 1000 years" idea came from since the last go round took place just as the Minbari were first venturing into space, so it's not as if they could have known what had been going on before they arrived (besides what the Vorlons may have told them of course). Which begs the question; if by the Third Age they were the oldest and most advanced of the younger races, what happened to the races got caught up in the cycles preceding Valen's Shadow War? The answer of course is that they were probably all wiped out.

The only line neither side was willing to cross was to directly strike at the other (hence the measured reprisal against Kosh and the Vorlons' lack of counter retribution.) It didn't really matter to them what each of them did with the younger races, the objective was to prove a point to the other. Even if they both miscalculated and got all the spacefaring races to wipe each other out, they'd just spend another ten thousand years grooming some bronze tech worlds and start the whole game all over again.

As for the Shadows preferring to stay behind the scenes; I tend to think of their behaviour as being something akin to agriculture. The "little" conflicts like the Narn-Centauri War and the numerous border skirmishes they started between the League worlds were just a way of weeding out the weaklings and letting the strong ones fight their way to the top for a while. Sowing a little conflict, fermenting with some chaos until the "crop" is ready and they show up in full force for the harvest.

I do agree though, it seams as though the Shadows are themselves the best proof of their own doctrine. Always thriving just on the edge of extinction. Always being beaten back to the very edge of defeat. The reality is of course that they were never in any "real" danger so long as they and the Vorlons felt they still had a point to prove.

I think I remember "In Valen's Name". That's the Tak'cha/Yolu stuff, right?

Yep. I wouldn't be surprised if the Narn were also involved in Valen's alliance to some degree. The show was kind of ambiguous about what their deal was before the Centauri got to them, at times suggesting that they weren't space-fairing, other times saying they had distant colony worlds before the occupation.

That's the impression I was left with too. I think JMS has said that G'Lan was a Vorlon that was active on Narn during that time and aided G'Quan in driving the Shadows off.

On the other hand, it's also stated that the Centauri didn't show up as an occupying force but slowly slid into that role over an indeterminate period of time. I suppose it's possible that the Narn could have established some colonies in that interim period after the Centauri gave them space travel (or perhaps just hyperspace travel), but before they decided to go all out an annex the joint. Indeed, there's a neat little conversation between Londo & G'Kar in one of Peter David's Centauri novels that has Londo admitting the Emperor at the time intended to do the something very similar to Earth when they initially made contact. Didn't work out that way of course.
 
It could be the Shadows' world of origin, it could be Lorien's...it could be neither. I don't think JMS ever clarified exactly what that planet was *really* about.
Well it would be odd for Lorien to wait on a random planet for "someone to get that far" and he definitely says the Shadows come to Z'ha'dum because of him in "Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi":

"LORIEN: Of course. That's why they come back to Z'ha'dum every time they're driven off. Because I'm here. They think they're showing respect. They don't understand. They used to...but that was a long time ago. A million years...."
 
A minor quibble, but I don't think it was the "Shadows' approaching Sheridan" that spurred the Vorlons' attack. Rather, it's my impression that the Vorlons' outright assault on Shadow-influenced worlds came about because of Sheridan's attack on Z'ha'dum itself. By causing such decimation, Sheridan forced the Shadows to regroup and pull-in their forces temporarily. That was the "unexpected opportunity"(sic) referred to by Ulkesh.

I in my first Watching think that it was even more manipulative then that. They planned to use Sheridan as a weapon from early on, but they never expected Sheridan to take out so much of the Shadows with him. At that point it was time to end it.

This of course makes Kosh a very unique character, as he knew since he been studying the younger races that it might be time for them to move on. So not only does he train Sheridan to stand up to both shadows AND Vorlons, but also sees that the Minbari are ready, humanity will be ready, and plants the seeds in G'Kar to make sure the Narn do not cause ruin. Of course, he didn't want to die for the cause, but he knew that he had to, and put the pieces in place to cause change. In many ways he was as much as a rebel as Sheridan, in the sense that he wanted to change his own government.

And indeed, the reason for the shadows love of Z'ha'dum is for the "Respect" of Lorien. And I still find it touching that the Shadows and the Vorlon's didn't want to go to the rim without Lorien, and where very scared of being alone.

Of course, what is in the rim that makes these races want to go there, other then to get out of the way of the younger races?
 
It could be the Shadows' world of origin, it could be Lorien's...it could be neither. I don't think JMS ever clarified exactly what that planet was *really* about.
Well it would be odd for Lorien to wait on a random planet for "someone to get that far" and he definitely says the Shadows come to Z'ha'dum because of him in "Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi":

"LORIEN: Of course. That's why they come back to Z'ha'dum every time they're driven off. Because I'm here. They think they're showing respect. They don't understand. They used to...but that was a long time ago. A million years...."

What's "odd" for a billion year old ball of light with a huge disco collar when it's at home? As I said, none of it was ever specified so we have no way of knowing why he was there (besides waiting for someone to find him) or what significance that rock had before Lorien set up house keeping there.

Honestly though, given Lorien's age (he was already "old" when the Sol system was still a cloud of interstellar dust) I'd be very surprised if the homeworld of the first born could still even exist. Odds are their star burnt out or went nova aeons ago.

Maybe it was their home world, maybe it was where they settled after the original was lost, maybe it was once the capital of a civilization that included all of the First Ones or maybe Lorien just dropped his car keys down in the catacombs and was just being *really* stubborn about leaving without them. ;)

Point is, we don't know, wich brings me right back to my previous post. :D

Of course, what is in the rim that makes these races want to go there, other then to get out of the way of the younger races?

Since for all intents and purposes, all of the action in the B5 "universe" is confined to the milky-way galaxy, venturing out beyond the rim basically means going outside what is known. Just as parents must die and make room for their children to grow and the children for their part must leave home to make their own way so muct space faring races ultimately outgrow their homeworlds and spread across the stars and even older races must eventually move on.

Bottom line; they've outgrown this little patch of stars and it's time to see what else is out there.
 
This of course makes Kosh a very unique character, as he knew since he been studying the younger races that it might be time for them to move on. So not only does he train Sheridan to stand up to both shadows AND Vorlons, but also sees that the Minbari are ready, humanity will be ready, and plants the seeds in G'Kar to make sure the Narn do not cause ruin. Of course, he didn't want to die for the cause, but he knew that he had to, and put the pieces in place to cause change. In many ways he was as much as a rebel as Sheridan, in the sense that he wanted to change his own government.
Absolutely. Original Kosh, like all the other characters on the station, had an arc. It was just more subtle and obscure than most. I think the idea was that his time among the younger races eventually made him switch sides. Which further goes to show the importance of the B5 station. None of this would have been possible without such an extraordinary gathering place.
 
Absolutely. Original Kosh, like all the other characters on the station, had an arc. It was just more subtle and obscure than most..

Indeed. And it was a particularly fascinating one for being so underplayed (and Kosh such an alien character). For me, seeing how his actions and words in "Dust to Dust" clearly referred back to his comments in "Midnight on the Firing Line", while also being so distanced from them in terms of Kosh's own emotional investment in what he was saying, made me pay even greater attention to him on my second watch of the series. Expressing the same idea twice, first as an excuse to dismiss the Narn and Centauri, and then as a reason to almost desperately try to help them, suggested just how much he'd been changed by his time on the station (or how much it had helped catalyse whatever doubts and musings he already had). That scene in "Dust to Dust" was a real wake-up call for how I viewed the character - he had been changing, and because he's such an odd, subtle and vague being I'd largely missed it.
 
Lorien also says he has been on Z'ha'dum since before Earth's Sun burned hot in space.

Not quite. At least not explicitly. When Sheridan asks how long he's been there, he just says "a long time", then pauses and describes how old he is.

"How long have you been here? A long time. So long.
I was old when the molecules of your world joined and called themselves land and sea and fish...and man."

You can take it as being implicit, but I don't think that was the intent of the dialogue. The only thing close to a solid time frame he gives is how long since the Shadows "understood."

"That's why they come back to Z'Ha'Dum every time they're driven off. Because I'm here. They think they're showing respect. They don't understand. They used to. But that was a long time ago. A million years."

IIRC, the official chronology places his settling on Z'ha'dum around this time too, which makes sense.
 
I was reading the line from the script, which is actually a little different. I'm on a different computer currently though so don't have the book in front of me. However the line as filmed still sounds like he's answering the question of how long he's been there on Z'ha'dum. I don't think Sheridan meant "how long have you been here" as some kind of metaphysical question.
 
^I suppose it's a matter of interpretation then because I would have said the line as delivered by Alexander makes it sound like a separate statement, as if pausing before taking a different tack. I'd also argue that Sheridan's intent has little to do with the response. Just about everything Lorien says can be taken metaphysically.
 
True that, I had that thought later that Lorien will answer everything metaphysically whether the question was or not.

I did finally look up the script, where he answers directly after Sheridan's question:

script said:
SHERIDAN: How...long have you been here?

Lorien fixes him with a look...the pupil is finally starting to figure it out.

LORIEN: I have been here since before your sun burned hot in space. I was old when the molecules of your world joined and called themselves land, and sea, and fish...and Man.

Interesting aside as I was searching through my archives, I realized the line "before your sun burned hot in space" was previously used in a certain Harlan Ellison script for Star Trek.
 
Guardian of Forever? I always thought that line had a familiar ring to it. Still, even in it's original form that line can be taken metaphysically. "I have been here" need not mean "here, in the catacombs of Z'ha'dum." After all, remember what Kosh said about "being here." ;)

I just checked the official chronology and it does indeed place Lorien's arrival on Z'ha'dum at a million years ago. This makes more sense to be in the context of when the Shadows last "understood" and ties more into Delenn's speech from 'In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum' about the other First Ones fighting the Shadows over a million years and the last "Great War" being 10,000 odd years ago when the First Ones still walked openly among the younger races. It also lines up with something we know the Vorlons were up to around that time, though I won't elaborate for fear of spoilers.

Having them loose their way back when Sol was still forming (5 billion years or so) would be an entierly different order magnitude. Next to that, a million years is hardly any time at all. Not so much loosing their way as a momentary lapse in judgement.
 
In my viewing, I had though that he had been at Z'ha'dum for a million years, but was elsewhere before. and that the shadows in some time between that million years and today got confused in Lorien mind. but that is only on one viewing...
 
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