I actually did not think Grey 17 was the weakest episode of the season, the mad bomber episode was not good except for the bit in the elevator...
Babylon 5 viewing order
- Thread starter species5618
- Start date
That's the odd thing about bad B5 episodes; while they do certainly exist, they almost all have at least one memorable scene. 'Grey 17 is Missing' gets a lot of flack (and rightfully so) but the reality is that the ranger b-plot is perfectly serviceable. And yes, I think the elevator scene in 'Convictions' is easily one of the best Londo/G'Kar scenes of the whole series.
Indeed, the ranger subplot is quite Serviceable. And also I like the fact that there is Neroon, he a reminder that the Minbari can be very tough and hard edged (which you almost never see in Lennier and only see Delenn when someone has peeved her off, makes them much more believable that they have a range of toughness. (And I still would not want Delenn peeved at me.)
O yea...some reviews...(Though I am rationing my episodes now...I am more then half way done with this great series!
, So I watched Leon/the Professional to clear the mind, kinda like ginger when eating sushi 
)Falling towards Apotheosis - Another great episode. But I am still a bit shocked that they actually apparently killed the "new" Kosh, in that there plan was to Kill him, not to chase him off. And I guess the Old Kosh did not approve of the new Kosh. is "Kosh" just a title? Also enjoyed the fact that they opened with a running report and kept it up. I guess the Vorlon's true form is a energy octopus. Also no wonder it was bittersweet the flash forward to 17 years in the future, as he would have 2-3 years left at that point...The cutting out of a eye gives me the "heebeejeebies" as stuff messing with eyes is one of those things that makes me freak. Even if it was off screen...eeep!
The Long Night] - I really like this episode, I had saved the discussion of Londo's issues till now. It was a good call to have Vir kill the mad emperor. Also G'Kar is awesome breaking the unbreakable chains. Londo is doing what best for the Republic, but he falling into the trap that he was warned about. I see G'Kar being a religious figure, its been building up for ages...
Also, it was brilliant and not-cheesy as he ordered one of his ships to die for the cause. If that doesn't choke you up a bit, nothing will and your heart is empty. Also I think that the fact that Sheridan died and returned for the cause makes it more likely that someone will follow his orders if that means they will die.
I have watched Into the fire, but going to hold off on commenting on it till I re-watch it, as you all know, a lot happened. but I am letting you know so you know you can discuss that episode without it being a spoiler.
No, Kosh II's actual name is Ulkesh (he's named in one of the canon books.) The whole "we are all Kosh" bit was just him being...well, a Vorlon. As JMS says; "They ain't wired up like the rest of us."
As for how Kosh and Ulkesh relate, I'll let Joe answer this one too.
JMS said:
Also, Kosh does have a formal title; Kosh Naranek. I think it's only mentioned once on the show ('And Now for a Word' IIRC) and yes, Ulkesh is also a Naranek.
It's his way of divulging that Sheridan is really a Timelord...... but I'm still trying to work out "Deleen".......
As Jan can attest... I've often said that one of my favorite scenes of the entire series is the battle between Marcus and Neroon.... all going on while Delenn blissfully unaware conducts the ceremony to be named "Entil'zha". The dramatic music, good fight choreography, the fight for her life.... it's hard to have a more stark difference in the juxtaposition of scenes. It was this b-plot that convinced me Neroon was a character worth following. Hence my choice for username here on the TrekBBS.
....But I digress from Humor's on-going episode review.
The Vorlons are still physical creatures, as mentioned by Joe at the time: "shown by the fact that it could strike out and hit things." They're just not a perfectly solid mass.
Vir gets what he wanted!
Not to mention, they can be poisoned.
It's his way of divulging that Sheridan is really a Timelord...... but I'm still trying to work out "Deleen".......
Snort, I was having a bad post day. Female names always get confused in my head, no wonder some of my ex-es hate me....
And thanks for the update on Kosh. I was really surprised it got to the point of taking out a ambassador<sp>. Of course, it would not surprise me if the Vorlons genocidal rampage was in due part to Kosh being killed by shadows, let alone them getting gravely wounded in Z'ha'dum....
And yes, you are correct they have a physical form still...
As soon as I saw that Morden was doomed...I was hoping that Vir got his waving wish.
I don't think Kosh's "assassination" directly resulted in the Vorlons' rampage. Remember that his killing was itself a retaliation for the Vorlons directly assisting the younger races in battle. Since you've seen 'Into the Fire' you now know that this was almost certainly against the rules and a measured response was thought justified by both sides (even if the Vorlons weren't exactly happy about it.)
I would say however that Kosh's death may be indirectly related to their deploying the planet killers in that his absence meant the hawks (for want of a better Vorlon equivalent) like Ulkesh would suddenly have more sway.
I would say however that Kosh's death may be indirectly related to their deploying the planet killers in that his absence meant the hawks (for want of a better Vorlon equivalent) like Ulkesh would suddenly have more sway.
And people tend to forget that Kosh held Sheridan up when he (Kosh) rescued him (Sheridan) as he fell from the core shuttle when it exploded.
I don't remember reading it in any canon source but I've always figured that the Vorlons as well as the Shadows could choose just how physical they wanted to be. It's just that we see the Shadows phase in and out.
Jan
^I'm not so sure about that. Remember that Morden had to break into Kosh's quarters to let his "associates" in and even if they could phase, the consequences of doing so while standing inside a giant centrifuge would probably be rather unfortunate (and humorous) for the Shadow in question. Plus of course if they were out of phase (yet magically able to stand on a solid floor) then that trick of getting the cameras to scan frequencies probably shouldn't have worked.
There's also the fact that in ITF Londo's guards were able to gun down a pair of Shadows with relative ease. It's difficult to know how immune to bullets the Vorlon was, since he knew he was under attack once he was cracked out of his shell, but he and Kosh were apparently killed rather conventionally by the explosion of the ship.
I think the shadows where always there, they just could choose to be visible or not. even when "phased out" they where killable by normal weapons (as shown). Vorlon's are tougher, but I suspect that there are not as many Vorlons as then Shadows...
Unless JMS has stated otherwise, I wouldn't call that foreshadowing. I mean he called him an "assassin of joy" not an "assassin of bi-pulmonary circulation." Bit of a stretch really
Actually that tracks quite well. We've seen that Vorlons are *very* tough to kill and it even took several (3?) Shadows to take down Kosh. Also, we never saw it, but it's a good bet Sheridan gunned down and at least wounded one Shadow with just a PPG pistol.
Interesting that out of the two races, the one dedicated to chaos and evolution through violence and conflict is the one that is the physically weaker of the two (relatively speaking of course.) Even at a technological level the Vorlons appear to have had the upper hand. While on the one hand the Vorlon Empire supposedly encompasses a huge swath of the galaxy, which they appear to be able to defend with an almost casual ease, while on the other hand the Shadows are repeatedly beaten back (or allow themselves to be beaten back) to a single world out of the very edge of the galaxy and are so poorly defended, primitive alien ships can land without doing much more than setting off the burglar alarm. Indeed, you have to wonder why they need to go into these prolonged states of hibernation (besides it being a plot contrivance of course.) Were they not able to crack immortality the way the Vorlons did? Is their infrastructure so badly crippled that this is the only way they can support their population for extended periods?
even without the planet killers, it really is quite clear that the Vorlons could have easily dusted them at any time if they were so inclined. All very odd considering the Shadows were supposedly the elder of the two races (though we don't know by how much.)
Actually that tracks quite well. We've seen that Vorlons are *very* tough to kill and it even took several (3?) Shadows to take down Kosh. Also, we never saw it, but it's a good bet Sheridan gunned down and at least wounded one Shadow with just a PPG pistol.
Interesting that out of the two races, the one dedicated to chaos and evolution through violence and conflict is the one that is the physically weaker of the two (relatively speaking of course.) Even at a technological level the Vorlons appear to have had the upper hand. While on the one hand the Vorlon Empire supposedly encompasses a huge swath of the galaxy, which they appear to be able to defend with an almost casual ease, while on the other hand the Shadows are repeatedly beaten back (or allow themselves to be beaten back) to a single world out of the very edge of the galaxy and are so poorly defended, primitive alien ships can land without doing much more than setting off the burglar alarm. Indeed, you have to wonder why they need to go into these prolonged states of hibernation (besides it being a plot contrivance of course.) Were they not able to crack immortality the way the Vorlons did? Is their infrastructure so badly crippled that this is the only way they can support their population for extended periods?
even without the planet killers, it really is quite clear that the Vorlons could have easily dusted them at any time if they were so inclined. All very odd considering the Shadows were supposedly the elder of the two races (though we don't know by how much.)
The Long Night] - I really like this episode, I had saved the discussion of Londo's issues till now. It was a good call to have Vir kill the mad emperor.
I am sure I will be grinning when I re-watch the series...
Into the Fire - I am surpised that the shadow war is over... I though the ending of it worked well enough, and in some ways, it unique in that the climax is actually a bunch of exposition on why the Vorlons and Shadows did what they did. I actually thought it was also sweet that the Shadow's asked if Lorien was coming with them.
The Vir Wave was a wonderful payoff, as it was a great bit back a few seasons before, and him getting what he wanted...Priceless. Londo in some ways is semi-redeemed, yes he power hungry and willing to do many bad things, but he is a patriot. Though you know he painting himself to be damnned. Tragic figure.
O yea, the battle CGI was sweet.
Epiphanies - ok, as a viewer, I am somewhat upset on whats happening with Mr. Garibaldi. Great plotting, but that does not mean I am happy about it. Lyta is a powerful telepath now. No doubt about that, and Zack is surprisingly like Garibaldi, guy who was on his last chance, lusts over nice looking Telepaths, and so on.
Z'ha'dum gone...and my salvage efforts are once again thwarted...
This is also setting up what I assume will be a theme for the remainder of season 4, which is the Clark issue. You almost feel for bester. Then again I am a softy.
The keeper is what nightmares are made of. (shudder)
The Illusion of Truth - Ok, this is not a BAD episode, but it is not as good as the other news cast episode. It is very good at looking at what our crew of B5 is facing. I did smile at the bit with the statue. I guess its a "good" episode but not a entertaining episode due to its serious nature.
Atonement - Ok, I thought that this was going to be a bad episode all the way till I found out the dream was going to be about the start of Human contact. I am guessing the facial hair is a sign of human DNA? Also the way to save face was a very minbari way of solving the issue. That, and hearing Marcus spouting Gilbert and Sullivan was classic. I am starting to really like him. which only means bad things will happen to him.
Unless JMS has stated otherwise, I wouldn't call that foreshadowing. I mean he called him an "assassin of joy" not an "assassin of bi-pulmonary circulation." Bit of a stretch really
Actually that tracks quite well. We've seen that Vorlons are *very* tough to kill and it even took several (3?) Shadows to take down Kosh. Also, we never saw it, but it's a good bet Sheridan gunned down and at least wounded one Shadow with just a PPG pistol.
Interesting that out of the two races, the one dedicated to chaos and evolution through violence and conflict is the one that is the physically weaker of the two (relatively speaking of course.) Even at a technological level the Vorlons appear to have had the upper hand. While on the one hand the Vorlon Empire supposedly encompasses a huge swath of the galaxy, which they appear to be able to defend with an almost casual ease, while on the other hand the Shadows are repeatedly beaten back (or allow themselves to be beaten back) to a single world out of the very edge of the galaxy and are so poorly defended, primitive alien ships can land without doing much more than setting off the burglar alarm. Indeed, you have to wonder why they need to go into these prolonged states of hibernation (besides it being a plot contrivance of course.) Were they not able to crack immortality the way the Vorlons did? Is their infrastructure so badly crippled that this is the only way they can support their population for extended periods?
even without the planet killers, it really is quite clear that the Vorlons could have easily dusted them at any time if they were so inclined. All very odd considering the Shadows were supposedly the elder of the two races (though we don't know by how much.)
Shadows, the roaches of the First ones. Think you get them all, then they just hibernate, spawn a bunch of new children that are tougher and stronger, (Or perhaps more appropriately aggressive) and wear down the other side, which is appropriate to there thinking. While the Vorlons had not had a unexpected baby since man discovered fire...
As a teen, it impressed me so much that the Shadows and Vorlons were given understandable motivations. Made it very hard to go back to watching typical alien invasion stories.
Wow, even after so many viewings B5 still manages to surprise. And yes, in some ways the second time through is the best. Tons of "holy cow it was there all along" moments.
Btw, if you enjoyed the flashbacks in this episode, there are many more featured in the "In the Beginning" film. And it's safe to watch that anytime now.
Huh, never even thought about that before. On Dukhat, you mean? Don't know if that was the intention, but interesting hypothesis nonetheless.
Wow, even after so many viewings B5 still manages to surprise. And yes, in some ways the second time through is the best. Tons of "holy cow it was there all along" moments.
Btw, if you enjoyed the flashbacks in this episode, there are many more featured in the "In the Beginning" film. And it's safe to watch that anytime now.
Last edited:
Z'ha'dum isn't the Shadows' world, it's Lorien's; the Shadows just thought that they were honoring him by deliberately stationing themselves there.
The whole Minbari beard thing is an old fan theory that I'm pretty sure JMS has neither confirmed nor denied. It seams a bit of an odd assumption to me that a lack of beards must be evidence of alien DNA rather than something more likely...like razors?
We don't actually know it's either for sure. All we do know is that Lorien had been residing there for the last million years and since then the Shadows have been hanging around the place like stink on pak'ma'ra.
It could be the Shadows' world of origin, it could be Lorien's...it could be neither. I don't think JMS ever clarified exactly what that planet was *really* about.
Similar threads
