The Little Girl and the Bleeding Obvious

[Starkers]

I don't see how it could have been her last kiss. This implies that the Doctor in the future gets a new haircut, takes River on a lovely picnic, gives her a sonic screw driver knowing she's heading for the Library, but doesn't kiss her? Ridiculous!

How do we know he hasn't already gave her the screwdriver in his timeline. Was River's sonic in Library different from Ten's?

I guess because he clearly hasn't given it to her in her timeline. The library 2 parter made it clear that the last time she saw him was for the picnic when he gave her the screwdriver, and given it was the first time he'd kissed her, it seems unlikely that it was late enough in his timeline for him to give her thescrewdriver, although I guess there's no reason why it couldn't be, except that she clearly gives the impression that the Doctor who gives her the screwdriver is much older, which would tie into the older 11 doing it (or maybe even 12 or 13)

I think unfortunately once we see the whole picture it's going to become apparent that their timeline won't make as much sense as we first thought, I'm guessing Moffat will go for the poetic version rather than a logical version.

 

[DAK]

In "Day of the Moon, River wonders

Spoiler: if the

if the suit could move on it's own. So maybe it's the suit itself that kills the Doctor, not the girl.

No. The Doctor knew who was inside, and you could see the bottom of a face as she pulled the visor open.

Has there ever been any evidence

Spoiler: River

River is a Timelord? The little girl did regenerate, after all.

No. The whole point of the Doctor dying was to obvious give the little girl the ability to regenerate. It wasn't an execution, it was a willing sacrifice. He was even giving her instructions on how to do it properly.

Why would he call Rory, Amy, and River to witness it though? He took a big chance there in altering his own future, because he had to know their instinct would be to try to save him. Canton could have disposed of the body without their help.

Once again, it's all

Spoiler: synergy

The Doctor's last act was to give his wife -- whom he finally got to know during the 200 years between Doctors -- a chance to live. River and the Doctor's relationship is completely in reverse. Her last act was his first meeting, his last act was her first meeting. That's also why River had that look on her face when she kissed him at the end; she knew that because it was his first kiss, it was her last one.

.

That would make a lovely timey-wimey poetic sense if Eleven was the last incarnation of the Doctor, which isn't likely.

Another thing that doesn't make sense to me regarding the spoilers floating around about River...

Spoiler: River's identity

When Moffat created River's character way back when, he already knew who or what she was to the Doctor. Amy and Rory hadn't even been thought of yet, so how could River be their child? Unless his idea for her was "offspring of generic future companions"?

Also, do you think the "Silence in the Library" could be the Vashta Nerada? Maybe they're what the Silence evolved into after thousands of years of being hunted by the human race?

 

[Butters]

Also, do you think the "Silence in the Library" could be the Vashta Nerada? Maybe they're what the Silence evolved into after thousands of years of being hunted by the human race?

I can see where you're coming from but no, not at all, and you wouldn't want Dr Who to be the show that made Voyager's threshold look plausible.

Besides, the Doctor was aware of them existing on all worlds at all times, thats why all beings are afraid of the dark.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Yeah, they're very ancient. Definitely not the same thing. Piranhas of the air and the thing in Van Gough's scream painting are not the same thing.

Although we do technically have two separate explanations for the thing you think you see in a mirror, fwiw.

 

[DAK]

Also, do you think the "Silence in the Library" could be the Vashta Nerada? Maybe they're what the Silence evolved into after thousands of years of being hunted by the human race?

I can see where you're coming from but no, not at all, and you wouldn't want Dr Who to be the show that made Voyager's threshold look plausible.

Thanks, I'd managed to blot that episode from conscious memory.

Yeah, they're very ancient. Definitely not the same thing. Piranhas of the air and the thing in Van Gough's scream painting are not the same thing.

Although we do technically have two separate explanations for the thing you think you see in a mirror, fwiw.

Yeah, and since they were both created by Moffat I'm fishing for a connection. The 'Silence' in the Library can't be a coincidence. Can it? Maybe the Vashta Nerada are the Silence's pets or attack dogs or something.

 

[Checkmate]

Why would he call Rory, Amy, and River to witness it though? He took a big chance there in altering his own future, because he had to know their instinct would be to try to save him. Canton could have disposed of the body without their help.

He had roughly 200 years to come up with a plan; 200 years in which he likely already knew he did this, and not necessarily knowing why. But as River said, the Doctor trusts the Doctor more than anyone else. So if he had a reason for doing it once, he should probably make sure it happens again.

Heck, the shorts they did for that comedy show a while back for that Red Nose Day or whatever pointed out the importance of that. If for some reason a future incarnation shows up, you damn well better make sure it happens again or BadThings(tm) will happen.

Anyway, just because he sacrificed his regeneration to save the little girl, that doesn't mean he didn't have a backup plan to rescue himself, too. It's kinda what he does.

That would make a lovely timey-wimey poetic sense if Eleven was the last incarnation of the Doctor, which isn't likely.

What's that have to do with anything? It's his first kiss; all future kisses/romances will be from an older Doctor.

Another thing that doesn't make sense to me regarding the spoilers floating around about River...

Spoiler: River's identity

When Moffat created River's character way back when, he already knew who or what she was to the Doctor. Amy and Rory hadn't even been thought of yet, so how could River be their child? Unless his idea for her was "offspring of generic future companions"?

"Who or what she was to the Doctor" has jack-all to do with her origins.

Also, do you think the "Silence in the Library" could be the Vashta Nerada? Maybe they're what the Silence evolved into after thousands of years of being hunted by the human race?

Could be. But Prisoner Zero had a very similar ability, and the Time Lords have technology that's very similar to the Silence's ability as well. Which just kind of leaves me all around.

 

[Butters]

Although we do technically have two separate explanations for the thing you think you see in a mirror, fwiw.

Pants. What is the second explanation? I know the girl with the balloon from the Family of Blood is one but whats the other?

 

[DAK]

That would make a lovely timey-wimey poetic sense if Eleven was the last incarnation of the Doctor, which isn't likely.

What's that have to do with anything? It's his first kiss; all future kisses/romances will be from an older Doctor.

Actually, I was referring to the rest of that paragraph...

Spoiler: before that you said

The Doctor's last act was to give his wife -- whom he finally got to know during the 200 years between Doctors -- a chance to live. River and the Doctor's relationship is completely in reverse. Her last act was his first meeting, his last act was her first meeting.

Spoiler: Astronaut

If River is the little girl in the astronaut suit and he gives his life for hers, she returns the favor in the Library when she sacrifices herself in his place. Then 200+ years later he sacrifices himself for her. Etc etc timey-wimey loopy-doopy and thus the reign of the Doctor ends with Eleven.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Yeah, and since they were both created by Moffat I'm fishing for a connection. The 'Silence' in the Library can't be a coincidence. Can it?

Sure it can, the idea of being silent in the library is a common expression. They made an MTV show about it.

Pants. What is the second explanation? I know the girl with the balloon from the Family of Blood is one but whats the other?

Didn't they say something about the Silents being that flicker in the corner of your eye or in the mirror you aren't quite sure you saw?

 

[Checkmate]

Spoiler: Astronaut

If River is the little girl in the astronaut suit and he gives his life for hers, she returns the favor in the Library when she sacrifices herself in his place. Then 200+ years later he sacrifices himself for her. Etc etc timey-wimey loopy-doopy and thus the reign of the Doctor ends with Eleven.

No. River's time with the Doctor may end with Eleven, but the Doctor may simply continue on after his sacrifice. From her perspective it's coming to an end, to his it's really only started and continues on for at least the next two hundred years from his perspective.

Hell, she may already be aware of his revival which is why she's not that concerned about his death (shocked at first, yes, but she seems to be putting pieces of the puzzle together herself). She clearly doesn't remember much of that time as a child, possibly as a side effect of the regeneration process or maybe because of all the exposure to the Silence. And if she does have any memory of interactions with another regeneration of the Doctor, then she has a pretty good reason to believe that everything will work out. Hence, again, her not going apeshit crazy after his "execution."

We'll find out one way or another soon enough. But there's little reason to think the girl is anyone other than River. Everything is pointing in that direction. In fact, the only thing that's not is the bizarre outrage of certain fans.

As for the screwdriver, she may very well already have it. There's gotta be a reason she can get in and out of that prison that easily.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

She punched him in the face. At what point did she connect the dots?

 

[SG-17]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't River supposed to be younger each time that we meet her in an episode?

 

[David cgc]

I think you could see her wrist strap from last season at some point, implying that, for her, this takes place after "The Pandorica Opens" but before "The Time of Angels"

 

[DAK]

Yeah, and since they were both created by Moffat I'm fishing for a connection. The 'Silence' in the Library can't be a coincidence. Can it?

Sure it can, the idea of being silent in the library is a common expression. They made an MTV show about it.

Maybe. But I don't believe it's any more of a coincidence than the lyrics to Abigail's song in the Christmas special. Moffat's not stupid; I think they're all connected somehow.

Spoiler: Astronaut

If River is the little girl in the astronaut suit and he gives his life for hers, she returns the favor in the Library when she sacrifices herself in his place. Then 200+ years later he sacrifices himself for her. Etc etc timey-wimey loopy-doopy and thus the reign of the Doctor ends with Eleven.

No. River's time with the Doctor may end with Eleven, but the Doctor may simply continue on after his sacrifice. From her perspective it's coming to an end, to his it's really only started and continues on for at least the next two hundred years from his perspective.

Um, yes, that's what I said, isn't it?

Spoiler: All I was pointing out...

...was that they sacrifice themselves for each other at the end of their respective timeline with each other (which is the beginning of the timeline for the non-sacrificee), to ensure that the other's timeline will happen as it should. It's like a closed loop. Assuming of course that that really is River in the suit.

Hell, she may already be aware of his revival which is why she's not that concerned about his death (shocked at first, yes, but she seems to be putting pieces of the puzzle together herself).

I don't see how they could possibly revive the Doctor - they burned his body and sunk the remains in the lake. There's nothing left to revive.

As for the screwdriver, she may very well already have it. There's gotta be a reason she can get in and out of that prison that easily.

From what she said he gave her the screwdriver the last time she saw him, shortly before her expedition to the Library. She was out of prison and a professor by then, so that has to occur in her timeline after the incident with the Weeping Angels.

 

[RevdKathy]

Small thought: given the issue with either meeting out of order or meeting backwards (I prefer the former - it's the only way the whole thing with the diaries makes sense) I wonder whether this is Moffat's way of keeping the River character but changing actresses, since Alex Kingston will age normally (one assumes). Are we going to get a child companion again?

 

[Checkmate]

She punched him in the face. At what point did she connect the dots?

Why wouldn't she still slap him even after she started putting things together? She wasn't there for these events the first time around (she was a tragically confused child, under years and years of influence of memory-erasing aliens). How would she have possibly known that the older Doctor had set everything up, including inviting his younger self into the adventure?

If she knew everything, then there'd be no reason for her to have that look when she kissed the Doctor at the end, either.

I don't see how they could possibly revive the Doctor - they burned his body and sunk the remains in the lake. There's nothing left to revive.

Yet we see one running around despite that. What are the odds?

Oh right, it's a time travel show where, apparently, the laws of time travel are much more mutable post-respawning-the-universe-with-a-time-machine.

The fact that the paradox monsters haven't shown up, something's going on. Especially considering just how much of a paradox is currently at play.

 

[Starkers]

Well given how often he's survived patently dying, maybe the Doctor's picked up some tips from the Master?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I think you could see her wrist strap from last season at some point, implying that, for her, this takes place after "The Pandorica Opens" but before "The Time of Angels"

In Time of Angels, didn't she say "we'll meet next time when the Pandorica Opens"? Seems she thought that would be the next time, not the Silence.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ Yes she says this exactly just before she's teleported back to the Stormcage.

 

[Butters]

I don't see how they could possibly revive the Doctor - they burned his body and sunk the remains in the lake. There's nothing left to revive.

Nothing a good ritual can't sort, albeit with a few minor side effects; including lightning bolts, hyperactiveness and an epic case of the munchies.