TOS-R question...

[RAMA]

My main qualm here was your claim that the non-indoctrinated or non-Trekker young fan would find the new FX jarring.

Where did I say that?

By the by... if two and a half minutes of effects footage destroys your ability to enjoy a fifty minute story, then something is wrong with you.

If you don't understand what I mean by "clearer, brighter, sharper, etc" there are plenty of videos out there that explain it. HD means "high definition" in case you didn't know.

http://www.cinevegas.com/blog/?p=703

http://trekmovie.com/2007/03/18/bob-justman-talks-tos-and-tos-r-with-trekmoviecom/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnKjGqQj_Nc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=758fT5Ov590

RAMA

 

[Therin of Andor]

By the by... if two and a half minutes of effects footage destroys your ability to enjoy a fifty minute story, then something is wrong with you.

There is something wrong with many viewers.

 

[Doug Otte]

Actually no, I don't think you can't enjoy the series without the new FX, but in my case, I'm spoiled by the superiority of the new TOS-R, which is in HD and is clearer and brighter, on top of the new FX. I have no need or interest in seeing the old versions now...which by definition are an inferior viewing experience.

RAMA

Rama, can you clarify the text I bolded above? It seems somewhat contradictory. Yes, we (almost) all agree that the newly-mastered original content in HD is the best Trek has ever looked. However, both the original effects and the new CGI effects are in HD as well. Some like the new effects, some prefer the old effects.

So, you can watch the original...in HD, or you can watch the new effects...in HD.

Doug

 

[GNDN]

I do respect the creators of TOS, I admire what they could do back in the 60s, but time moves on. I am ecstatic that the preservation and improvement of TOS means fans will appreciate it when their frame of reference to TOS is/will be 40-50-60 years more advanced in technology than when it aired. Remember I watched TOS when there was no other Trek around...TOS was my first love of Trek, but I'm always looking forward, not back.

So where does it stop? Is Gus Van Sant's Psycho superior to Hitchcock's? It's more modern, it's in color. Should we replace all the computer displays in TOS? Acting styles will certainly change in another 50 years so should we replace the live action portions as well?

ST is a product of it's time on all levels. Some consider it art, commercially produced, but art nonetheless. Why is it considered "looking back" to simply take a work in it's entirety? I appreciate that you prefer the new FX and many may as well, but that does not mean that those who wish to watch the original or who reject the new FX outright should be considered luddites.

The 11' model of the Enterprise is part of what made the audience fall in love with TOS in the first place. It is part of a whole. What was shown live action, what was depicted by stock footage, what was newly shot for a particular episode all determined how the show was created and edited. Are the new FX effective? Much of the time they can be, but as I have also noted, at times they draw attention to themselves. I personally prefer lesser model work to lesser CGI. Both the original and the new FX were produced on a television budget and it shows.

The new FX did get alot of fans to watch syndicated episodes out of curiosity (I recorded many, but was so put off by the necessary evil of syndication edits, that I didn't hold onto the recordings) If TOS on Blu-Ray had only been available with the new FX, there is a good chance I would not have made the purchase (same rationale that I will not purchase Star Wars on Blu-Ray without the Original Theatrical versions) As a marketing effort, the changes can be entertaining, but not worthy of supplanting the originals in either case. And the excuse of the shots being of insufficient quality for 1080p is wholly subjective. In HD, the original FX are rendered more finely than they had been at DV resolution. Yes there are matte lines and bleeds in the composites, but these have always been there. Would this level of VFX be expected on a TV show from 2011? No, but this is a show from 1966, so less sophisticated FX should be expected. Doesn't take away from the stories one bit.

 

[Warped9]

One day I will likely watch all of TOS-R and make a firsthand determination of my own, but presently i cherish having the original episodes on dvd and seeing them pretty much as I remember them. On dvd they look better than how I watched them originally on a CRT television back in the '70s and watching it now on my 32" LCD doesn't show too many sins.

 

[RAMA]

Actually no, I don't think you can't enjoy the series without the new FX, but in my case, I'm spoiled by the superiority of the new TOS-R, which is in HD and is clearer and brighter, on top of the new FX. I have no need or interest in seeing the old versions now...which by definition are an inferior viewing experience.

RAMA

Rama, can you clarify the text I bolded above? It seems somewhat contradictory. Yes, we (almost) all agree that the newly-mastered original content in HD is the best Trek has ever looked. However, both the original effects and the new CGI effects are in HD as well. Some like the new effects, some prefer the old effects.

So, you can watch the original...in HD, or you can watch the new effects...in HD.

Doug

Technically they are HD yes, but the FX themselves are so low quality its far more jarring to see these with the restored non-fx footage. The new footage looks much better.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

I do respect the creators of TOS, I admire what they could do back in the 60s, but time moves on. I am ecstatic that the preservation and improvement of TOS means fans will appreciate it when their frame of reference to TOS is/will be 40-50-60 years more advanced in technology than when it aired. Remember I watched TOS when there was no other Trek around...TOS was my first love of Trek, but I'm always looking forward, not back.

So where does it stop? Is Gus Van Sant's Psycho superior to Hitchcock's? It's more modern, it's in color. Should we replace all the computer displays in TOS? Acting styles will certainly change in another 50 years so should we replace the live action portions as well?

ST is a product of it's time on all levels. Some consider it art, commercially produced, but art nonetheless. Why is it considered "looking back" to simply take a work in it's entirety? I appreciate that you prefer the new FX and many may as well, but that does not mean that those who wish to watch the original or who reject the new FX outright should be considered luddites.

The 11' model of the Enterprise is part of what made the audience fall in love with TOS in the first place. It is part of a whole. What was shown live action, what was depicted by stock footage, what was newly shot for a particular episode all determined how the show was created and edited. Are the new FX effective? Much of the time they can be, but as I have also noted, at times they draw attention to themselves. I personally prefer lesser model work to lesser CGI. Both the original and the new FX were produced on a television budget and it shows.

The new FX did get alot of fans to watch syndicated episodes out of curiosity (I recorded many, but was so put off by the necessary evil of syndication edits, that I didn't hold onto the recordings) If TOS on Blu-Ray had only been available with the new FX, there is a good chance I would not have made the purchase (same rationale that I will not purchase Star Wars on Blu-Ray without the Original Theatrical versions) As a marketing effort, the changes can be entertaining, but not worthy of supplanting the originals in either case. And the excuse of the shots being of insufficient quality for 1080p is wholly subjective. In HD, the original FX are rendered more finely than they had been at DV resolution. Yes there are matte lines and bleeds in the composites, but these have always been there. Would this level of VFX be expected on a TV show from 2011? No, but this is a show from 1966, so less sophisticated FX should be expected. Doesn't take away from the stories one bit.

This is a judgement to be made by the studios, creators, and/or appointed re-creators...who hopefully have some attachment to the project and responsibility to it. In this case CBS/Paramount did everything right, from hiring the Okudas onward.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

Actually no, I don't think you can't enjoy the series without the new FX, but in my case, I'm spoiled by the superiority of the new TOS-R, which is in HD and is clearer and brighter, on top of the new FX. I have no need or interest in seeing the old versions now...which by definition are an inferior viewing experience.

RAMA

Rama, can you clarify the text I bolded above? It seems somewhat contradictory. Yes, we (almost) all agree that the newly-mastered original content in HD is the best Trek has ever looked. However, both the original effects and the new CGI effects are in HD as well. Some like the new effects, some prefer the old effects.

So, you can watch the original...in HD, or you can watch the new effects...in HD.

Doug

Technically they are HD yes, but the FX themselves are so low quality its far more jarring to see these with the restored non-fx footage. The new footage looks much better.

RAMA

I can actually think of a couple of episodes where the original effects are clearly better... one being The Tholian Web, the other being The Enterprise Incident. And I say this as a fan of the new effects.

 

[Doug Otte]

I can actually think of a couple of episodes where the original effects are clearly better... one being The Tholian Web, the other being The Enterprise Incident. And I say this as a fan of the new effects.

The Immunity Syndrome is another example...

Doug

 

[BillJ]

I can actually think of a couple of episodes where the original effects are clearly better... one being The Tholian Web, the other being The Enterprise Incident. And I say this as a fan of the new effects.

The Immunity Syndrome is another example...

Doug

You're absolutely right. Something about the amoeba just looked off in the Remastered version.

 

[RAMA]

I can actually think of a couple of episodes where the original effects are clearly better... one being The Tholian Web, the other being The Enterprise Incident. And I say this as a fan of the new effects.

The Immunity Syndrome is another example...

Doug

I hated the psychedelic cloud from the original, I much prefer the new one, it appears to have more mass, and just might be alive! Never got that sense from the original.

I also know some people don't like the new Tholian ship, but I honestly see nothing wrong with this:

http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/tholian/tholian_webslinger.jpg

New FX:

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:USS_Enterprise_and_Tholian_web_-_overhead,_remastered.jpg

I mean c'mon, let's be real here:

http://drexfiles.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/tholian-starship-the-tholian-web-5.jpg?w=648&h=474

 

[scotpens]

. . . I also know some people don't like the new Tholian ship, but I honestly see nothing wrong with this:

http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/tholian/tholian_webslinger.jpg

New FX:

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:USS_Enterprise_and_Tholian_web_-_overhead,_remastered.jpg

I mean c'mon, let's be real here:

http://drexfiles.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/tholian-starship-the-tholian-web-5.jpg?w=648&h=474

I prefer the geometric simplicity and smoothness of the original. The greeblied Tholian ship looks like it belongs in the Star Wars universe.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I prefer the geometric simplicity and smoothness of the original. The greeblied Tholian ship looks like it belongs in the Star Wars universe.

Agreed. Under the revisionism of the new effects, no longer can one imagine that some unusual crystal-based technology unique to the Tholians was used to build their ships. Instead of something unique, the new Tholian ships are JASS (Just Another Space Ship). Therefore, they are totally blasé.

Now, if the new look had been something within a wholly crystalline texture, but more detailed and expensive looking, that might have been another story.

 

[RAMA]

. . . I also know some people don't like the new Tholian ship, but I honestly see nothing wrong with this:

http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/tholian/tholian_webslinger.jpg

New FX:

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:USS_Enterprise_and_Tholian_web_-_overhead,_remastered.jpg

I mean c'mon, let's be real here:

http://drexfiles.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/tholian-starship-the-tholian-web-5.jpg?w=648&h=474

I prefer the geometric simplicity and smoothness of the original. The greeblied Tholian ship looks like it belongs in the Star Wars universe.

It looks like a wood sculpture painted gray, love the shape, hate the detail. Doesn't look like a spacecraft at all.

Agreed. Under the revisionism of the new effects, no longer can one imagine that some unusual crystal-based technology unique to the Tholians was used to build their ships. Instead of something unique, the new Tholian ships are JASS (Just Another Space Ship). Therefore, they are totally blasé.

Now, if the new look had been something within a wholly crystalline texture, but more detailed and expensive looking, that might have been another story.

Um as opposed to what? Imagining they had advanced wood block sculpturing technology? Cause that ship does not speak of some advanced unusual technology at all.

RAMA

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Um as opposed to what? Imagining they had advanced wood block sculpturing technology? Cause that ship does not speak of some advanced unusual technology at all.

OK. I am going to assume you weren't just trying to provoke me with your damned wood block sculpturing remark. Let me explain it to you slowly, so you can understand.

We get a glimpse of the interior of the Tholian ship on the viewscreen. It's glowing. It's shimmering. It's weird. The Tholian himself looks like a red hot glowing crystal. The classic model looks like a hunk of crystal to begin with, but especially given what we see of the Tholian being and the interior, the ship has always made me think of a hunk of crystal. Fucking sue me.

Next.

 

[RAMA]

Um as opposed to what? Imagining they had advanced wood block sculpturing technology? Cause that ship does not speak of some advanced unusual technology at all.

OK. I am going to assume you weren't just trying to provoke me with your damned wood block sculpturing remark. Let me explain it to you slowly, so you can understand.

We get a glimpse of the interior of the Tholian ship on the viewscreen. It's glowing. It's shimmering. It's weird. The Tholian himself looks like a red hot glowing crystal. The classic model looks like a hunk of crystal to begin with, but especially given what we see of the Tholian being and the interior, the ship has always made me think of a hunk of crystal. Fucking sue me.

Next.

We are talking about the ship exterior, not the interior...if you are going to make the analogy then you have match up the fact there were no new Tholians interiors shown in the episode...you'd have to completely lack any sense whatsoever to suggest that plain exterior was MORE alien looking than the new one. In terms of basic shape, the old and new are basically the same, just because the TOS shape is crystalline doesn't mean it looks like one...it looks like painted wood!! Now if you jump ahead a bit you can make the analogy between the Tholian body seen in Enterprise and the new ship seen in both ENT and TOS-R. But then again you'd be on the wrong side of the analogy because that Tholian there looks FAR more alien and believable than the one in TOS, and is an excellent match for the species derived spacecraft exterior seen in TOS-R.

RAMA

 

[scotpens]

It looks like a wood sculpture painted gray, love the shape, hate the detail. Doesn't look like a spacecraft at all.

. . . Now, if the new look had been something within a wholly crystalline texture, but more detailed and expensive looking, that might have been another story.

Um as opposed to what? Imagining they had advanced wood block sculpturing technology? Cause that ship does not speak of some advanced unusual technology at all.

Oh, who the fuck cares? The Tholian ship is seen onscreen close-up for only about four seconds anyway.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

you'd have to completely lack any sense whatsoever to suggest that plain exterior was MORE alien looking than the new one

Well then, I guess you are saying that I "completely lack any sense whatsoever."

Now, if the new look had been something within a wholly crystalline texture, but more detailed and expensive looking, that might have been another story.

I provided a third alternative to what was on screen in 1968 and what was in TOS-R. While the 1968 model is low budget, what's worse for me is that I hate the TOS-R design choices made to "update" the ship. It lacked imagination, and as I said above, now it's Just Another Space Ship.

By the way, for the record, a crystalline exterior is not the only possibility that might have wooed me. I would have been open to other alternatives as well. But what they went with, no; I can just pop in Star Wars again to get my fix of that sort of thing.

In any case, when choosing between something low budget and something I hate, the choice is pretty clear. I live with the thing that's low budget.

Now, I'm really sick of debating the point with you.

Since you are now explicitly suggesting that people who disagree with you "completely lack any sense whatsoever," the "conversation" is over.

 

[BillJ]

...you'd have to completely lack any sense whatsoever to suggest that plain exterior was MORE alien looking than the new one.

Do you have some experience with alien spacecraft, Tholian in particular, that your not telling us about? If not, you can say which you prefer, but I find it downright offensive to be told I "lack any sense" for preferring the original.

What about the exterior shown in The Tholian Web Remastered makes it more alien than what was originally shown?

Until we know more about Tholian FTL travel... either interpretation is perfectly valid.

 

[Tallguy]

(I can't believe I'm wading into this...)

I thought the space shots for much of TOS-R were seriously lacking. The Enterprise Incident and Tholian Web were mentioned. I'll throw in Where No Man Has Gone Before.

They really knocked it out of the park with Tomorrow is Yesterday. Space Seed was pretty nice.

And MY GOODNESS were their matte paintings pretty. The examples cited above are gorgeous. Wink of an Eye is great too. Amok Time is nice.

It was an interesting exercise. I haven't had the funds for the blu ray sets, but it will certainly be nice to have both.