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How was Nero's anger going to save Romulus?

I think you’re putting too much emphasis on the Kelvin as a motive. The story works just as well (as far as Nero’s motives are concerned) if it’s a comet that nails the Narada, so you don’t have to accept the idea of the Kelvin as a contributor to Nero’s Federphobia.

If a comet hits the Narada, it's not his fault unless he went flying into its path. He put himself in the trouble he ends up in. That's the kind of behavior I can't really grasp.
That's because you're trying to paint rational human motives and thought processes on an irrational, homicidal alien.

It's an ontological requirement that Nero ISN'T a rational person and doesn't have alot of rational motivations, probably even by Romulan standards. If he was, then he wouldn't have chased Spock through the black hole and none of the events of STXI would have taken place to begin with.

To an extent, I can understand wanting to rid of people who are so contrary, even though I wouldn't want to do so, especially considering collateral. However, there's a big history with how we feel about Muslims and others, and we can't really be certain why Nero feels the way he does about humans.
You're confusing your terms here. We understand perfectly well how WE feel about Muslims and why we feel that way. The question is why do THEY feel the way they do? Most westerners have only a vague idea at best, and the rest of us don't really care. There's some history there that bears examination some of which is legitimately our fault, most of which is just accidental, and understanding Jihadist hatred towards the west is futile without knowing the backgrounds of the Muslim Brotherhood and the respective chess games between the CIA and the KGB that helped bring it to fruition.

OTOH, most Jihadists don't actually know why they hate the west either, at least not to an extent they could put into words. For many of them the conflict is actually older than they are and they hate simply because they're used to hating (kinda like many Americans still hate communists despite the fact that the Cold War has been over for twenty years).

Since STXI is not an historical documentary I wouldn't expect it to give an in-depth analysis of Romulan enmity towards the Federation. It's enough to know that Nero is psychotic alien warlord addicted to rage and hell-bent on destroying Vulcan, Earth, and all other Federation worlds. He's just evil; why don't really know why, and it doesn't really matter.

Again, it's hard for me to identify with someone who has a problem, is given the keys to fix it, yet decides to basically make the problem worse. And I think this hardly sums up the ridiculous circumstances surrounding Nero.
Nero is the antagonist. You're not supposed to identify with him. You're supposed to identify with Kirk and Spock.

FYI, not that it matters, but it is this very same irrational self-destructive behavior that causes me not to identify with my dad and many parents not to identify with their children. You have the solution right there in front of you and yet for some deeply emotional/personal reason you do the one thing in the world that is guaranteed to make it worse.

And people wonder why the Vulcans turned to logic.
 
Since STXI is not an historical documentary I wouldn't expect it to give an in-depth analysis of Romulan enmity towards the Federation. It's enough to know that Nero is psychotic alien warlord addicted to rage and hell-bent on destroying Vulcan, Earth, and all other Federation worlds. He's just evil; why don't really know why, and it doesn't really matter.

Well, I guess it doesn't matter to you. I like characters that have well defined motives, even the insane ones. As has been said many times, using insanity as a justification to do whatever you want with a character is kinda lame.

Nero is the antagonist. You're not supposed to identify with him. You're supposed to identify with Kirk and Spock.

All characters should be able to be identified with to some degree. Having some not just makes them glorified props.
 
Since STXI is not an historical documentary I wouldn't expect it to give an in-depth analysis of Romulan enmity towards the Federation. It's enough to know that Nero is psychotic alien warlord addicted to rage and hell-bent on destroying Vulcan, Earth, and all other Federation worlds. He's just evil; why don't really know why, and it doesn't really matter.

Well, I guess it doesn't matter to you. I like characters that have well defined motives, even the insane ones. As has been said many times, using insanity as a justification to do whatever you want with a character is kinda lame.
Actually, it's kinda CLASSIC. It worked for Norman Bates, it worked for Hannibal Lecter, it worked for Khan, it worked for Soran (mostly), it worked SPECTACULARLY for the Joker. As a base motive for a character you don't plan to explore in depth, insanity works just as well--if not better--as avarice or lust or cowardice. They key here, of course, is that it only works for a character you don't plan to explore.

So why the hell do we need to explore Nero's character? He is the one major character in the entire story who ISN'T part of the TOS legacy; we've never seen him before and we'll never see him again. If this was the Romulan Commander from "The Enterprise Incident" it would be one thing, but who the hell is Nero?

Nero is the antagonist. You're not supposed to identify with him. You're supposed to identify with Kirk and Spock.
All characters should be able to be identified with to some degree.
No. Not unless you're writing a melodrama or a biopic that takes both points of view into consideration. Action-Adventure movies NEVER do this, and the few that have attempted it resulted in some pretty messy failures.

Having some not just makes them glorified props.
Yes, exactly. You're finally getting it. Nero is a glorified prop. And even if by some miracle he was able to become something more in later productions, he is nothing that the audience will ever be able to relate to because his base motivation is that an omnicidal maniac who simply wants to spread as much misery as possible on some flimsy pretense. He is the Osama bin Laden of the Star Trek universe: even if you COULD get to the bottom of this and figure out why he does what he does, giving him his comeuppance is vastly more important.
 
It would have been nice if Nero had served some function other than prop. I was hoping he might be the conduit by which we at long last learn a bit more about who the Romulans really are, other than the generic space baddies that they've been allowed to become, by default.

But before that can happen, the writers need to decide who the Rommies really are. I don't think even this step has been taken. Well, I keep hoping. There's always the next movie, the next TV series...

He is the Osama bin Laden of the Star Trek universe
Nero's not even that much. Bin Laden's motives and goals are well known; he's told us what they are, and they're not simplistic or generic. His ultimate goal is to establish a worldwide caliphate under shariah law.

If Nero had goals that idiosyncratic and grandiose, he would have been more than a prop. The writers would have to dig into the Romulans and ask what they, as a society, want? What aspect of their society is unique to them in the Star Trek cosmos? What makes them distinct from Vulcans, Cardassians, Klingons, humans?

Nail all that down and use it to construct a Nero character who is more than a generic prop, who could have been any other species and worked in the story just as well. Use Nero as a representative of Romulans as a whole. He'd still serve his function in the story, but there would be a bonus for the audience as well. Why do just one thing when you can do two?
 
It would have been nice if Nero had served some function other than prop. I was hoping he might be the conduit by which we at long last learn a bit more about who the Romulans really are, other than the generic space baddies that they've been allowed to become, by default.
As it stands, Nero became a conduit for us to find out who SPOCK is, or would be allowed to become by default. I've said many times in this thread, the reason Nero's character wasn't explored in depth is because Star Trek isn't about Nero, Star Trek is about Kirk and Spock and McCoy and now (also) Uhura.

He is the Osama bin Laden of the Star Trek universe
Nero's not even that much. Bin Laden's motives and goals are well known; he's told us what they are, and they're not simplistic or generic. His ultimate goal is to establish a worldwide caliphate under shariah law.
Which is similar to Nero's ultimate goal of wiping out the Federation and eventually creating a stronger Romulan Empire.

The comparison IMO is that Nero, like bin Laden, doesn't have anything resembling a coherent plan on how to do this and seems to proceed from the assumption that if he just destroys enough of the opposition than everything will turn out perfectly.

Nail all that down and use it to construct a Nero character who is more than a generic prop, who could have been any other species and worked in the story just as well.
Yes, IF the story had an extra hour of runtime to spend on that sort of development, but it would also have to be paced very differently and balanced very carefully to avoid being transmogrified into "The Lord Nero Show."

Nero doesn't deserve that kind of focus unless they're planning to bring him back. Even Darth Vader--the primary antagonist of the entire Star Wars triology--didn't get that kind of development until Return of the Jedi, prior to which he was just a psychotic warlord with light saber. Khan, arguably, had only slightly more development than Nero and a lot of that is owed to his character already having been established in Space Seed.

Why do just one thing when you can do two?
Because you CAN'T do two in the space of a two hour movie unless you do it at the expense of the MAIN CHARACTERS. Nero is the antagonist of this story, but Star Trek isn't about him, nor is it about the Romulans. There are opportunities to do that later.
 
Because you CAN'T do two in the space of a two hour movie unless you do it at the expense of the MAIN CHARACTERS.

But you do have time if you're not awkwardly trying to introduce eight different characters all at once...
 
Actually, it's kinda CLASSIC. It worked for Norman Bates, it worked for Hannibal Lecter, it worked for Khan, it worked for Soran (mostly), it worked SPECTACULARLY for the Joker.

So you think it worked as well for Nero then? All of those characters are more than props, and even though they might be insane, it's not used as justification for stupid actions. They aren't nearly the plot device that Nero is.

So why the hell do we need to explore Nero's character? He is the one major character in the entire story who ISN'T part of the TOS legacy; we've never seen him before and we'll never see him again.
The legacy is irrelevant. Any other movie that has no basis on anything prior, or even no intention of sequel, should still take the time to develop its characters the best it can.

And Nero is important as he is what drives the entire movie. Without him, there is no movie at all. He destroys one of the most pivotal worlds to the Federation, a Federation fleet, and a Klingon fleet, all because... he's nutty? His character begs for more than what we're given because what he does is on such a great scale.

No. Not unless you're writing a melodrama or a biopic that takes both points of view into consideration.
There are plenty of movies that are not these types you list where I can still identify with the villains more. Again, it doesn't mean I agree with them or root for them, just that I can understand their actions within a certain context.
 
Nero destroyed the klingon and starfleet fleets because they were obstacles in his way. His primary goal was to hurt Spock. He even says as much. Nero went after Vulcan first so that Spock could experience his pain and loss over Romulus. Nero blamed everything on Spock, the federation was secondary. Its also why he spared the NuE, in order to make young Spock suffer as well.
 
I don't think the escape from punishment was really all that guaranteed
Perhaps not, but Nero may well believe himself invincible after destroying 47 Klingon ships, 8 Federation ships, and Vulcan.

I think most people, if they were given such a powerful thing, would probably use it for their own personal financial gain.
The choices are not mutually exclusive. You can do both.

Material goods aren't going to salve Nero's pain, or his crew's. Nothing will replace the home and the families they lost or get them back the last 25 years of their lives.

I'm guessing a scant few of them would use it for genocide.
Probably more than you think. People can rationalize just about anything by convincing themselves their victims deserve it or are a threat, and rationalizers can very easily assign collective guilt. If you look around and don't see this kind of rationalization everywhere, I'd like to live in your world.

Again, it's hard for me to identify with someone who has a problem, is given the keys to fix it, yet decides to basically make the problem worse.
Yet we see this kind of behavior all the time, in the real world as well as in Trek.


Since STXI is not an historical documentary I wouldn't expect it to give an in-depth analysis of Romulan enmity towards the Federation. It's enough to know that Nero is psychotic alien warlord addicted to rage and hell-bent on destroying Vulcan, Earth, and all other Federation worlds. He's just evil; why don't really know why, and it doesn't really matter.

Well, I guess it doesn't matter to you. I like characters that have well defined motives, even the insane ones. As has been said many times, using insanity as a justification to do whatever you want with a character is kinda lame.
The way you tell it, it sounds like the film gives Nero completely arbitrary behaviors to drive the plot forward and provides no explanation beyond the label "he's insane." That's not the case. The fact that you can't relate to the character because he thinks and acts differently than you do doesn't mean his motives aren't well defined. His behavior is perhaps irrational and certainly reprehensible, but it's not random or insane.

Some choice quotes from Who Becomes a Terrorist and Why:
Federal Research Division said:
A common stereotype is that someone who commits such abhorrent acts as planting a bomb on an airliner, detonating a vehicle bomb on a city street, or tossing a grenade into a crowded sidewalk café is abnormal. [pp. 26-27]

In fact, there is no psychological evidence that terrorists are diagnosably psychopathic or otherwise clinically disturbed. [p. 30]

there is little reliable evidence to support the notion that terrorists in general are psychologically disturbed individuals. [p. 30]

It seems clear that terrorists are extremely alienated from society, but alienation does not necessarily mean being mentally ill. [p. 30]
captrek's note: Under the circumstances, Nero and his crew are of course alienated from everybody and everything except each other.

Commonly held assumptions about the relationship between fanaticism and mental illness...seem to be inappropriate. [p.32]

Terrorists whose only sense of significance comes from being terrorists cannot be forced to give up terrorism, for to do so would be to lose their very reason for being [p. 35]
captrek: Once again, it's clear that Nero and crew would struggle to find a sense of significance. They have no home, no family, no business, no history in this century. What matters most to them is their home in the Prime timeline's 24th century, and there’s not much they can do to be significant to that world besides avenge its destruction.

Every group, according to Bion, has two opposing forces—a rare tendency to act in a fully cooperative, goal-directed, conflict-free manner to accomplish its stated purposes, and a stronger tendency to sabotage the stated goals. The latter tendency results in a group that defines itself in relation to the outside world and acts as if the only way it can survive is by fighting against or fleeing from the perceived enemy; a group that looks for direction to an omnipotent leader, to whom they subordinate their own independent judgment and act as if they do not have minds of their own; and a group that acts as if the group will bring forth a messiah who will rescue them and create a better world. [pp. 35-36]

On the basis of his observation of underground resistance groups during World War II, J.K. Zawodny (1978) concluded that the primary determinant of underground group decision making is not the external reality but the psychological climate within the group. For action-oriented terrorists, inaction is extremely stressful. For action-oriented members, if the group is not taking action then there is no justification for the group. Action relieves stress by reaffirming to these members that they have a purpose. Thus, in Zawodny’s analysis, a terrorist group needs to commit acts of terrorism in order to justify its existence. [p. 38]

Pearlstein points out that other examples of the political terrorist’s self- justification of his or her terrorist actions include the terrorist’s taking credit for a given terrorist act and forewarning of terrorist acts to come. By taking credit for an act of terrorism, the terrorist or terrorist group not only advertises the group’s cause but also communicates a rhetorical self-justification of the terrorist act and the cause for which it was perpetrated. By threatening future terrorism, the terrorist or terrorist group in effect absolves itself of responsibility for any casualties that may result. [p. 38]

Albert Bandura (1990) has described four techniques of moral disengagement that a terrorist group can use to insulate itself from the human consequences of its actions. First, by using moral justification terrorists may imagine themselves as the saviors of a constituency threatened by a great evil. For example, Donatella della Porta (1992:286), who interviewed members of left-wing militant groups in Italy and Germany, observed that the militants “began to perceive themselves as members of a heroic community of generous people fighting a war against ‘evil.’” [p. 39]

Terrorists do not perceive the world as members of governments or civil society do. Their belief systems help to determine their strategies and how they react to government policies. As Martha Crenshaw (1988:12) has observed, “The actions of terrorist organizations are based on a subjective interpretation of the world rather than objective reality.” ... Their convictions may seem irrational or delusional to society in general, but the terrorists may nevertheless act rationally in their commitment to acting on their convictions. [p. 41]

Terrorists are generally people who feel alienated from society and have a grievance or regard themselves as victims of an injustice. [p. 50]

Russell and Miller found that, according to arrest statistics, more than 75 to 80 percent of terrorists in the various regions in the late 1970s were single. [p. 51]

Another finding is that the terrorist is not diagnosably psychopathic or mentally sick. Contrary to the stereotype that the terrorist is a psychopath or otherwise mentally disturbed, the terrorist is actually quite sane, although deluded by an ideological or religious way of viewing the world. [p. 60]
All that fits pretty well with what we see in the film.

Nero is the antagonist. You're not supposed to identify with him. You're supposed to identify with Kirk and Spock.

All characters should be able to be identified with to some degree. Having some not just makes them glorified props.

This isn’t a 3½-hour epic. It's a 2-hour feature film. It can't explore every character in depth. Honestly, do you really identify with Khan, Sybok, and Chang? Like Nero, I can somewhat understand them, but not identify with them. It's rare when I can identify with a villain, and when I can it's usually because the villain is the protagonist (such as Salieri in Amadeus or Michael Corleone in Godfather II).

All characters should be able to be identified with to some degree.
No. Not unless you're writing a melodrama or a biopic that takes both points of view into consideration. Action-Adventure movies NEVER do this, and the few that have attempted it resulted in some pretty messy failures.
Heat, with Al Pacino and Robert DeNiro, is an example of an Action-Adventure film that takes both points of view, and it's pretty good. It is somewhat melodramatic. It's also nearly 3 hours long.


I was hoping he might be the conduit by which we at long last learn a bit more about who the Romulans really are, other than the generic space baddies that they've been allowed to become, by default.

But before that can happen, the writers need to decide who the Rommies really are. I don't think even this step has been taken. Well, I keep hoping. There's always the next movie, the next TV series...

Bin Laden's motives and goals are well known; he's told us what they are, and they're not simplistic or generic. His ultimate goal is to establish a worldwide caliphate under shariah law.

If Nero had goals that idiosyncratic and grandiose, he would have been more than a prop. The writers would have to dig into the Romulans and ask what they, as a society, want? What aspect of their society is unique to them in the Star Trek cosmos? What makes them distinct from Vulcans, Cardassians, Klingons, humans?

Nail all that down and use it to construct a Nero character who is more than a generic prop, who could have been any other species and worked in the story just as well. Use Nero as a representative of Romulans as a whole.
You want a movie that "digs in" to Romulan society, didn't get it, and are disappointed that we got a movie about Kirk, Spock, and the Enterprise instead? Do you think a movie aimed at general audiences should have made a priority of exploring Romulan culture and contrasting it to Vulcan, Cardassian, and Klingon cultures?
 
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Anyway, to reemphasize an important point I made earlier: Nero doesn’t have to be completely bonkers to blame Spock, Vulcan, and the Federation for the destruction of Romulus.

Hobus threatens to destroy not just Romulus but the entire galaxy with Romulus as but the first victim. Romulus has to turn to its traditional enemy, Vulcan. Vulcan has a technological solution and deploys it at precisely the right moment to save everything in the galaxy except Romulus. It’s easy for somebody from Nero’s vantage point to assume they hit what they aimed for. He and his crew spend the next quarter century in Rura Penthe, sounding off to each other about the evil Romulus-destroying Federation like TNZers sounding off to each other about the evil truth-destroying Fox News. Fellow inmates provide a constant stream of anecdotal evidence establishing that intentionally allowing the destruction of Romulus is the kind of thing the Federation is capable of.

It’s a lot less crazy than believing that Barack Hussein Obama is an evil America-destroying Muslim from Kenya, but in a recent poll a quarter of American registered voters said they believe that.

This is something the film should have made clearer. The viewer can easily get the impression that Nero hates Spock for sincerely trying to help and failing. Assume he doubts the sincerity of Spock’s effort and the character makes a lot more sense.
 
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Because you CAN'T do two in the space of a two hour movie unless you do it at the expense of the MAIN CHARACTERS.

But you do have time if you're not awkwardly trying to introduce eight different characters all at once...
Quite right, which is why the antagonist in the second film--if any--will benefit from far greater character development than Nero did. As would Nero himself if he had survived to be included in the next film.
 
Actually, it's kinda CLASSIC. It worked for Norman Bates, it worked for Hannibal Lecter, it worked for Khan, it worked for Soran (mostly), it worked SPECTACULARLY for the Joker.

So you think it worked as well for Nero then?
Not as well as Joker or Norma, but better than Shinzon, slightly better than Soran, almost as good as Khan.

All in all, I'd give him a B-minus.

All of those characters are more than props, and even though they might be insane, it's not used as justification for stupid actions. They aren't nearly the plot device that Nero is.
True as that is, they were also just as lacking in background and character development as Nero was and are primarily memorable not for the information portrayed, but because of the amazingly powerful performances of the actors who played them. The singular exception is Norman Bates, who not only turned out to be the MAIN CHARACTER of Psycho, but had the benefit of three sequels to add depth and background to his character.

I think I'm beginning to agree with Captrek, it may have more to do with Bana's performance than the actual writing, but going back through the movie I find that Nero had considerably less screen time than almost any other Trek villain since Kruge so it's not like he had much of a chance.

The legacy is irrelevant. Any other movie that has no basis on anything prior, or even no intention of sequel, should still take the time to develop its characters the best it can.
But most of them don't, especially in science fiction, and MOST especially in Star Trek.

Think about this. How much character development did Dave Bowman or Frank Poole get in 2001: A Space Odyssey? How about Saavik in TWOK, or Captain Tarrel for that matter? How about Biff from Back to the Future or any of the crewmembers of the Nostromo or the Sulaco? And where the hell did Khan find Joachim?

Let's go down the list: 2001 ultimately isn't about Bowman OR Poole, it's really about the Monolith and its relationship with humanity, so their backgrounds are entirely glossed over. Saavik is known to be one of Spock's pupils and quotes alot of regulations... and that's about it. Captain Tarrel... glorified redshirt, we don't even know his first name. Biff Tanner: token bully from a family of token bullies, none of whom have any other attributes to speak of in any of the three timelines they appear. The crew of the Nostromo: bug food. Colonial Marines? Bug Food Redux (even Newt doesn't have any detailed background except being a frightened little girl who watched her parents get eaten by aliens). Joachim: disposable sidekick. Worst. Death. Ever.

Sci-fi aspires to a lot, but exploring all of its supporting characters in spectacular depth just aint one of them. Why do you think it is so poorly represented at the Oscars?

And Nero is important as he is what drives the entire movie. Without him, there is no movie at all.
That doesn't mean he is deserving of extra character development. I asked you this earlier and I'm asking it again: would Jaws have been a better movie if the shark had more lines?

For that matter: would The Voyage Home have been a better movie if the Whale Probe spoke English?

Half the time the villains benefit from NOT being well understood, and the less we know about them the better. Joker, for example, is one character that we know virtually nothing about except that he loves to murder people. He's "Evil out of fucking nowhere." And it works.

There are plenty of movies that are not these types you list where I can still identify with the villains more.
Name one.
 
Heat, with Al Pacino and Robert DeNiro, is an example of an Action-Adventure film that takes both points of view, and it's pretty good.

Except for the part where Natalie Portman loses the will to live. Which as we all know is completely unacceptable in a film.
 
Heat, with Al Pacino and Robert DeNiro, is an example of an Action-Adventure film that takes both points of view, and it's pretty good.

Except for the part where Natalie Portman loses the will to live. Which as we all know is completely unacceptable in a film.

? :lol:

Off topic: one of the most disturbing signatures I've seen since frequenting these boards (ten years).
 
Perhaps not, but Nero may well believe himself invincible after destroying 47 Klingon ships, 8 Federation ships, and Vulcan.

Which is another foreign concept to me. I can understand evading the law and becoming arrogant, but anyone with a shred of intelligence should know that you can't win forever.

Nothing will replace the home and the families they lost or get them back the last 25 years of their lives.

How about figuring out how to time travel back and stopping the supernova?

Yet we see this kind of behavior all the time, in the real world as well as in Trek.

Not to this degree though. Like, Nero is essentially handed an immediate solution to his problem. Imagine a loved one of yours gets hit by a bus. If an hour later, you're offered the chance to make that not happen, do you still remain upset? I can't imagine any person who would stay so upset given their prospects.

The way you tell it, it sounds like the film gives Nero completely arbitrary behaviors to drive the plot forward and provides no explanation beyond the label "he's insane." That's not the case. The fact that you can't relate to the character because he thinks and acts differently than you do doesn't mean his motives aren't well defined. His behavior is perhaps irrational and certainly reprehensible, but it's not random or insane.

It's just what people have said prior in this thread in defense of the writing. And I have to imagine that it lines up because he's definitely not acting in any rational way at all.

This isn’t a 3½-hour epic. It's a 2-hour feature film. It can't explore every character in depth.

Which is why I thought it could be a bit longer and have less characters to focus on.

Honestly, do you really identify with Khan, Sybok, and Chang? Like Nero, I can somewhat understand them, but not identify with them.

I think it depends on how you define these words if you want to make a distinction. I mostly mean understand, but I think it's more than that.

better than Shinzon

Anybody is better than Shinzon. Shinzon is like the epitome of what my point is here. That you have a character who makes the dumbest decisions based on the strangest reasoning that it becomes far too detached to even believe. Nero isn't too far off from that.

How about Biff from Back to the Future

It's funny because this one crossed my mind and I was going to bring it up, but I chose not to.

While Biff doesn't have a back story, he doesn't really need one. People can identify with his character because he's just a normal human being. He's a typical example of a bully, and one that people can really understand. He doesn't really need a background because nothing he does is really all that extraordinary. And I would say that just like extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, characters that do extraordinary actions require extraordinary development, or at the very least, some development.

I asked you this earlier and I'm asking it again: would Jaws have been a better movie if the shark had more lines?

The reason I didn't answer it is because it's a ridiculous question, and you know that. If a villain is a force of nature, then it's absurd to expect anything from them. However, if they're from an intelligent species capable of complexity, there are more expectations.

There are plenty of movies that are not these types you list where I can still identify with the villains more.
Name one.

Well, I've already given a couple if you go back and read a bit. But almost every Trek movie for starters.
 
Nothing will replace the home and the families they lost or get them back the last 25 years of their lives.

How about figuring out how to time travel back and stopping the supernova?

Nero is essentially handed an immediate solution to his problem. Imagine a loved one of yours gets hit by a bus. If an hour later, you're offered the chance to make that not happen, do you still remain upset? I can't imagine any person who would stay so upset given their prospects.
When Spock Prime comes through the wormhole and Nero gets the red matter, he should take care of Hobus first and Vulcan second. I don't think there's anything in the film that explicitly rules out the possibility that he does this, so pick whichever version of the story you're more comfortable with:

In Version #1, Nero does take care of Hobus before attacking Vulcan, but the film oddly fails to mention it.

In Version #2, Nero plans to take care of Hobus after destroying Vulcan and Earth. The Fark snark would sarcastically quip, “What could possibly go wrong?” (Note that Farkers use that line in relation to real-world events. However difficult you may find it to identify with such foolishness, it's not unrealistic behavior.)

The way you tell it, it sounds like the film gives Nero completely arbitrary behaviors to drive the plot forward and provides no explanation beyond the label "he's insane." That's not the case. The fact that you can't relate to the character because he thinks and acts differently than you do doesn't mean his motives aren't well defined. His behavior is perhaps irrational and certainly reprehensible, but it's not random or insane.
It's just what people have said prior in this thread in defense of the writing. And I have to imagine that it lines up because he's definitely not acting in any rational way at all.
I don't think that's the best defense.

Nero fits remarkably well with what is described in Who Becomes a Terrorist and Why. Orci and Kurtzmann set out to tell a good Hollywood story, not to create a sociologically accurate portrayal of a terrorist, but as it happens they hit pretty close to the mark.



BTW, I had another thought about our irrelevant discussion of the Kelvin. For the story to work the Kelvin doesn't need to be a motivating factor for Nero, but I suggested that it may be, and you said that's nonsense because it's Nero who attacks the Kelvin. It occurs to me that the fact that Nero is the aggressor might actually make the Kelvin even more of a motivating factor.

When the Narada comes through the wormhole, the destruction of Romulus has just happened from Nero's perspective. He's attacking Spock when he gets sucked into the black hole. He's angry, the adrenaline is pumping, his brain is in “Kill the enemy!” mode. It is in this state of mind that he attacks the Kelvin and kills Captain Robau. People don't like to think of themselves as being in the wrong, so in the aftermath of his attack on the Kelvin and murder of Robau Nero convinces himself that the Federation deserves it.

Try looking at the story through the lens of realistic psychology instead of insisting that the characters must interpret events objectively, without factual or logical errors in their analysis.
 
The South Fulton Fire Department needed a reboot:

Firefighters let home burn
Firefighters in rural Tennessee let a home burn to the ground last week because the homeowner hadn't paid a $75 fee.

Gene Cranick of Obion County and his family lost all of their possessions in the Sept. 29 fire, along with three dogs and a cat.

...

The fire started when the Cranicks' grandson was burning trash near the family home. As it grew out of control, the Cranicks called 911, but the fire department from the nearby city of South Fulton would not respond.

"We wasn't on their list," he said the operators told him.

Cranick, who lives outside the city limits, admits he "forgot" to pay the annual $75 fee.

...

Firefighters did eventually show up, but only to fight the fire on the neighboring property, whose owner had paid the fee.

"They put water out on the fence line out here. They never said nothing to me. Never acknowledged. They stood out here and watched it burn," Cranick said.

...

After the blaze, South Fulton police arrested one of Cranick's sons, Timothy Allen Cranick, on an aggravated assault charge, according to WPSD-TV, an NBC station in Paducah, Ky.

Police told WPSD that the younger Cranick attacked Fire Chief David Wilds at the firehouse because he was upset his father's house was allowed to burn.

There are some obvious parallels here to Nero's story.

In the Hollywoodized version of the Cranicks' story, there is existing bad blood between the family and the SFFD, including Wilds. The 911 dispatcher says firefighters will be right there, but in fact they arrive much later—too late for the Cranicks, in time for the neighbors. The surviving Cranicks are sucked through a wormhole into an alternate timeline.

When Wilds comes through the wormhole, what kind of reception does he get from the Cranicks? Is it beyond suspension of disbelief that they might burn down his family's home, kill his pets in the fire, and make him watch?

Now imagine that Nero is from the Romulan version of Tennessee.
 
The South Fulton Fire Department needed a reboot:

Firefighters let home burn
Firefighters in rural Tennessee let a home burn to the ground last week because the homeowner hadn't paid a $75 fee.

Gene Cranick of Obion County and his family lost all of their possessions in the Sept. 29 fire, along with three dogs and a cat.

...

The fire started when the Cranicks' grandson was burning trash near the family home. As it grew out of control, the Cranicks called 911, but the fire department from the nearby city of South Fulton would not respond.

"We wasn't on their list," he said the operators told him.

Cranick, who lives outside the city limits, admits he "forgot" to pay the annual $75 fee.

...

Firefighters did eventually show up, but only to fight the fire on the neighboring property, whose owner had paid the fee.

"They put water out on the fence line out here. They never said nothing to me. Never acknowledged. They stood out here and watched it burn," Cranick said.

...

After the blaze, South Fulton police arrested one of Cranick's sons, Timothy Allen Cranick, on an aggravated assault charge, according to WPSD-TV, an NBC station in Paducah, Ky.

Police told WPSD that the younger Cranick attacked Fire Chief David Wilds at the firehouse because he was upset his father's house was allowed to burn.
There are some obvious parallels here to Nero's story.

In the Hollywoodized version of the Cranicks' story, there is existing bad blood between the family and the SFFD, including Wilds. The 911 dispatcher says firefighters will be right there, but in fact they arrive much later—too late for the Cranicks, in time for the neighbors. The surviving Cranicks are sucked through a wormhole into an alternate timeline.

When Wilds comes through the wormhole, what kind of reception does he get from the Cranicks? Is it beyond suspension of disbelief that they might burn down his family's home, kill his pets in the fire, and make him watch?

Now imagine that Nero is from the Romulan version of Tennessee.



um, this is not the best analogy. In the film(no outside sources to use as a crutch), Spock Prime is shown as having done his best to save Romulus, NOT DELIBERATELY DELAYING. Nero has no rational reason to want "revenge" on someone who hadn't wronged him, and in fact, had done his best to save Nero's people.


back to the "he's just a nut" theory....
 
um, this is not the best analogy. In the film(no outside sources to use as a crutch), Spock Prime is shown as having done his best to save Romulus, NOT DELIBERATELY DELAYING.
The “Hollywoodized” version of the Cranick story is a better analogy than the true version. In the Hollywoodized version, the SFFD doesn’t watch the Cranick home burn, they just arrive too late to save it. Maybe it’s due to factors beyond their control, and maybe not. The Cranicks have no way to know whether or not the firefighters did their best to be there on time and given existing hostilities between them it’s easy to assume they didn’t.

Nero has no rational reason to want "revenge" on someone who hadn't wronged him, and in fact, had done his best to save Nero's people.


back to the "he's just a nut" theory....
Just because Spock did his best to save Romulus doesn’t mean Nero has to be schizo to believe otherwise.

You may have missed this post:
Anyway, to reemphasize an important point I made earlier: Nero doesn’t have to be completely bonkers to blame Spock, Vulcan, and the Federation for the destruction of Romulus.

Hobus threatens to destroy not just Romulus but the entire galaxy with Romulus as but the first victim. Romulus has to turn to its traditional enemy, Vulcan. Vulcan has a technological solution and deploys it at precisely the right moment to save everything in the galaxy except Romulus. It’s easy for somebody from Nero’s vantage point to assume they hit what they aimed for. He and his crew spend the next quarter century in Rura Penthe, sounding off to each other about the evil Romulus-destroying Federation like TNZers sounding off to each other about the evil truth-destroying Fox News. Fellow inmates provide a constant stream of anecdotal evidence establishing that intentionally allowing the destruction of Romulus is the kind of thing the Federation is capable of.

It’s a lot less crazy than believing that Barack Hussein Obama is an evil America-destroying Muslim from Kenya, but in a recent poll a quarter of American registered voters said they believe that.

This is something the film should have made clearer. The viewer can easily get the impression that Nero hates Spock for sincerely trying to help and failing. Assume he doubts the sincerity of Spock’s effort and the character makes a lot more sense.
I’m not relying on outside sources for that. It makes sense given the information presented in the film (and also given the Prime-timeline history of enmity between Romulus and Vulcan/Federation, which is not mentioned in the film, but is well known to Trekkers).
 
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Anyway, to reemphasize an important point I made earlier: Nero doesn’t have to be completely bonkers to blame Spock, Vulcan, and the Federation for the destruction of Romulus.

Hobus threatens to destroy not just Romulus but the entire galaxy with Romulus as but the first victim. Romulus has to turn to its traditional enemy, Vulcan. Vulcan has a technological solution and deploys it at precisely the right moment to save everything in the galaxy except Romulus. It’s easy for somebody from Nero’s vantage point to assume they hit what they aimed for. He and his crew spend the next quarter century in Rura Penthe, sounding off to each other about the evil Romulus-destroying Federation like TNZers sounding off to each other about the evil truth-destroying Fox News. Fellow inmates provide a constant stream of anecdotal evidence establishing that intentionally allowing the destruction of Romulus is the kind of thing the Federation is capable of.

It’s a lot less crazy than believing that Barack Hussein Obama is an evil America-destroying Muslim from Kenya, but in a recent poll a quarter of American registered voters said they believe that.

This is something the film should have made clearer. The viewer can easily get the impression that Nero hates Spock for sincerely trying to help and failing. Assume he doubts the sincerity of Spock’s effort and the character makes a lot more sense.
I’m not relying on outside sources for that. It makes sense given the information presented in the film (and also given the Prime-timeline history of enmity between Romulus and Vulcan/Federation, which is not mentioned in the film, but is well known to Trekkers).
On second look, all the film tells us about Rura Penthe (referred to only as “Klingon prison planet,” not by name) is that the Narada destroys 47 Klingon ships there. No reason is stated, and no mention is made of where Nero was or what he did during the 25 years between the Kelvin encounter and Klingon encounter. It's a reasonable inference that he was an inmate, but it's not made explicit in the film.
 
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