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What Do You Think Really Happen with Religions in ST?

It is a peer reviewed study, That study only noteworthy issue is looking at non-smokers, as it was assumed that LDS had longer lives due to not smoking, when it turns out there are other benefits due to other practices. and i was referring to the code that LDS is brought up to has measurable benefits (Longer life) and thus is really a no cost.

As i said, I am not going to covert you over a message board, but I live my life according to a set of religious rules, and sure, you can do that secularly, but I doubt many people would or could live up to a LDS level without a religious backing, both in willpower and also in community.

Well, I guess it's time for me to speak up.

I was LDS (or 'Mormon') for fifteen years. Went directly into atheism, pending further evidence of supernatural spooky creatures; when that evidence presents itself, I'll reconsider.

I don't doubt that Mormons live longer. They don't drink alcohol, tea, or coffee; they don't smoke; and they subvert personal stress by concerning themselves with the afterlife, rather than worrying about making this life a decent one. Of *course* they live longer. Shaolin monks probably outlive their peers, too, along with other monastic cultures.

I could form my own religion based on fictional Vulcan's Kolinahr. No emotions, no heated conflict. All rational vegetarians that don't eat animal fat or smoke cigarettes or guzzle whiskey drinks. Then I could show you statistics that demonstrate that they live longer than most. Of course they do. This isn't anything complicated.

However, it proves nothing as far as supernatural deities are concerned. Just because cutting out drinking and smoking is healthy - something that everyone in this day and age is aware of, despite their religion - doesn't mean that God is real and smiling upon them. It's just basic nutrition/chemistry/etc.

Anyway, to get down to it - as I said, I was a Mormon for many years. 'We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost...' etc. I could quote the entirety of the 'Articles of Faith'. What I learned was that there is a difference between satisfaction and happiness. I was happy believing the church-stories about what I was promised in the afterlife. Who wouldn't be happy believing in an afterlife spent with your family, the people you love, and the creation of your own world? However, after a certain point, I found that I could only be truly satisfied with the truth. Satisfaction, by my definition, is being comforted by the fact that I know something is real. I could believe in any one of a thousand fictions that would make me happy. I could justify any belief, or action that I took, on the basis that it makes me feel 'happy'. In the end, however, it's far more important to me that I recognize a TRUTH, even if it is unhappy, because I will never be satisfied by a happy lie.

Because I believe in providing useful examples, here's one:

You're in a happy relationship with your significant other.

You get along great with her (or him). Your interaction is as close to perfect as it gets. However, for whatever reason, you have the nagging suspicion that she or he is cheating on you. You have no evidence, nothing concrete - just a nagging suspicion. Maybe she/he had a few too 'friendly' dinners with a member of the opposite sex. Maybe she/he spends a remarkable amount of time on the phone with said member of the opposite sex. Something triggers your feelings of discomfort with the situation... but as far as you can tell, it could be entirely in your head. You have no real reason to suspect, just the slightest hunch. This leaves you with a choice.

Do you ignore it? So far as you can tell, your relationship is as positive as it has ever been. You can choose to have faith in your significant other, and tell yourself that it's your own weakness that causes you to suspect your mate.

Or, you can attempt to clear/confirm your suspicion by either confronting your mate - which may fracture the trust between you - or 'spy' and attempt to find evidence to confirm or clear your suspicions.

In the first scenario, in which you choose to cast out your suspicions; you're choosing HAPPINESS. Your relationship is fine, after all, why go looking for trouble? You have FAITH in your partner. This is the easygoing, harmonious tact, but it doesn't provide truth.

In the second scenario, you're risking the HAPPINESS of that relationship, because what you will really be *SATISFIED* with is the TRUTH.

You can have faith and happiness, or you can have truth and satisfaction.

When I left the Mormon church - and all of religion - it was because I decided that I could only be satisfied with the truth about reality. I could never settle for being 'happy' about a 'faith' in reality.

Here's reality - life isn't awesome. It's rarely even 'happy'. There's plenty of pleasure to be had - don't get me wrong - but any belief system that purports that everything is going to be awesome and sunshine and rainbows - if one follows a set of arbitrary rules - is ridiculous. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why I like The Final Frontier so much, against the popular opinion - I like Kirk's declaration that he 'NEEDS HIS PAIN!' - that is, he welcomes a painful, horrible, regrettable, but TRUE truth and rejects a peaceful, happy substitute - and then dares question the Almighty's motives from the perspective of pragmatism.

Please think about it. It was perhaps the greatest epiphany of my life when I realized that satisfaction is far more valuable and useful than happiness.

I think faith helps people find happiness and, the truth. You have to look pass your own ego to see the truth and faith helps people to be less egotistic. You have to respect others and yourself too see the real truth, and that's the idea of God. I must admit a lot of people do get carried away preparing for the after life and forget to live in the moment. But I think it's because it's a sick, sick world sometime. Buddhists weren't kidding when they say life is full of suffering. I can attest to that! Believe me! Sometime I wished I would just disappear, but faith is the only thing that is keeping me happy and sane right now. If you feel good about yourself and other people through faith, then you will see the truth without letting your ego get in the way.

And Talking about ego.... IF your partner or spouse is cheating on you, then there is something seriously wrong with the relationship. Usually, something is not right.... Maybe your spouse has problems and you don't pay attention to him/her and just brushed his/her problems off like it was nothing because he/she is annoying. Usually, it takes one person (a person of great conviction and infinite wisdom) to look pass their ego and not let that bother him/her and try to help him/her because he/she loves him/her, and he/she may return the favor. And there you have a perfect marriage. It is reciprocal. If inspite of all the helps he had been giving her she didn't change, then they marriage will never work.
 
Oh, I'm sure there are millions of them. That wasn't my point. As I said, it's simply the latest PR effort by the mormon church is to transform its public image from this
tumblrlk44020knc1qini1v.jpg




Into this.
30pastorxlarge1.jpg



Easier to recruit new followers if they think there's a place for them, eh? Funny how the Mormon Church rarely INTENTIONALLY draws attention to Glenn Beck's membership... that would be sort of counter-productive.

Yes , when people think of Mormons, they think of white middle class missionaries in shirt and tie. In all fairness, I live in one of the least ethnically diverse areas (NC mountains) where my county is 98 percent white. Yes, there is a lot of Whites that are members, but its much more diverse then the surrounding area and I found the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) MUCH more monochrome in membership. I also found this to be true in other areas when I visited. Where there is a basis in truth for any stereotype, it gets old real quick. It took over a hundred years to convince the population that we don't take more then one wife these days, and I might take 100 years before people realize that we are a ethnically diverse lot.

As for the marketing bit, Some marketing is required in the sense of disproving common misperceptions<sp>. I guess I could tell you about a near revolt at a stake (regional) meeting when the speaker who did marketing in his day job (Leadership is volunteer based, so the non-retired have a day job) Got a little too Amway.... :rommie:





It is a peer reviewed study, That study only noteworthy issue is looking at non-smokers, as it was assumed that LDS had longer lives due to not smoking, when it turns out there are other benefits due to other practices. and i was referring to the code that LDS is brought up to has measurable benefits (Longer life) and thus is really a no cost.

As i said, I am not going to covert you over a message board, but I live my life according to a set of religious rules, and sure, you can do that secularly, but I doubt many people would or could live up to a LDS level without a religious backing, both in willpower and also in community.

Well, I guess it's time for me to speak up.

I was LDS (or 'Mormon') for fifteen years. Went directly into atheism, pending further evidence of supernatural spooky creatures; when that evidence presents itself, I'll reconsider.

I don't doubt that Mormons live longer. They don't drink alcohol, tea, or coffee; they don't smoke; and they subvert personal stress by concerning themselves with the afterlife, rather than worrying about making this life a decent one. Of *course* they live longer. Shaolin monks probably outlive their peers, too, along with other monastic cultures.

I could form my own religion based on fictional Vulcan's Kolinahr. No emotions, no heated conflict. All rational vegetarians that don't eat animal fat or smoke cigarettes or guzzle whiskey drinks. Then I could show you statistics that demonstrate that they live longer than most. Of course they do. This isn't anything complicated.

However, it proves nothing as far as supernatural deities are concerned. Just because cutting out drinking and smoking is healthy - something that everyone in this day and age is aware of, despite their religion - doesn't mean that God is real and smiling upon them. It's just basic nutrition/chemistry/etc.

Anyway, to get down to it - as I said, I was a Mormon for many years. 'We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost...' etc. I could quote the entirety of the 'Articles of Faith'. What I learned was that there is a difference between satisfaction and happiness. I was happy believing the church-stories about what I was promised in the afterlife. Who wouldn't be happy believing in an afterlife spent with your family, the people you love, and the creation of your own world? However, after a certain point, I found that I could only be truly satisfied with the truth. Satisfaction, by my definition, is being comforted by the fact that I know something is real. I could believe in any one of a thousand fictions that would make me happy. I could justify any belief, or action that I took, on the basis that it makes me feel 'happy'. In the end, however, it's far more important to me that I recognize a TRUTH, even if it is unhappy, because I will never be satisfied by a happy lie.

Because I believe in providing useful examples, here's one:

You're in a happy relationship with your significant other.

You get along great with her (or him). Your interaction is as close to perfect as it gets. However, for whatever reason, you have the nagging suspicion that she or he is cheating on you. You have no evidence, nothing concrete - just a nagging suspicion. Maybe she/he had a few too 'friendly' dinners with a member of the opposite sex. Maybe she/he spends a remarkable amount of time on the phone with said member of the opposite sex. Something triggers your feelings of discomfort with the situation... but as far as you can tell, it could be entirely in your head. You have no real reason to suspect, just the slightest hunch. This leaves you with a choice.

Do you ignore it? So far as you can tell, your relationship is as positive as it has ever been. You can choose to have faith in your significant other, and tell yourself that it's your own weakness that causes you to suspect your mate.

Or, you can attempt to clear/confirm your suspicion by either confronting your mate - which may fracture the trust between you - or 'spy' and attempt to find evidence to confirm or clear your suspicions.

In the first scenario, in which you choose to cast out your suspicions; you're choosing HAPPINESS. Your relationship is fine, after all, why go looking for trouble? You have FAITH in your partner. This is the easygoing, harmonious tact, but it doesn't provide truth.

In the second scenario, you're risking the HAPPINESS of that relationship, because what you will really be *SATISFIED* with is the TRUTH.

You can have faith and happiness, or you can have truth and satisfaction.

When I left the Mormon church - and all of religion - it was because I decided that I could only be satisfied with the truth about reality. I could never settle for being 'happy' about a 'faith' in reality.

Here's reality - life isn't awesome. It's rarely even 'happy'. There's plenty of pleasure to be had - don't get me wrong - but any belief system that purports that everything is going to be awesome and sunshine and rainbows - if one follows a set of arbitrary rules - is ridiculous. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why I like The Final Frontier so much, against the popular opinion - I like Kirk's declaration that he 'NEEDS HIS PAIN!' - that is, he welcomes a painful, horrible, regrettable, but TRUE truth and rejects a peaceful, happy substitute - and then dares question the Almighty's motives from the perspective of pragmatism.

Please think about it. It was perhaps the greatest epiphany of my life when I realized that satisfaction is far more valuable and useful than happiness.

Thank you for you sharing this, and I am sorry that those in your area tried to sell it as "Happiness" when the reality is that is not easy being LDS/Mormon. I happen to find both Satisfaction and Happiness in my life (even if there are things I would like to change, like loosing some weight, that my male-pattern baldness slows down (Though I will be looking like Picard soon) and a nice girl in my life) and a part of of my life is my faith. I spent about half my life looking for some sort of spiritual home, and I happened to find it. I hope that you too can find both satisfaction and happiness in your life. Of course, I wouldn't be LDS if I didn't say your more then welcome to come back, but unlike some other LDS I understand why you might be unwilling to go that route and I hope you find what your looking for.

DH
 
Faith is not a pathway to truth.

Faith: hope and desire mistaken for knowledge.

Isn't hope, dream and desire the quest for knowledge, the truth about oneself and the world? We want to make sense of all the information that is bombarding us and don't really know what to make of it. We have to search for the solution from within. I think one true happiness, the truth about oneself is the human factors. This is what faith is all about. I mean different people interpret it in different ways, but this is basically what is all about.....
 
When I say faith is not a pathway to truth, I meant it. I mean, if you believe in your particular view of God, and your reason is because of faith, then you haven't done anything, because your buddy might believe in a different version of God, and his faith tells him that this is so. How do you find out what is true? Not through faith, because both of you have it, you see?
I was talking about finding out what is true, the method to figure that out. If you only what to feel good, faith is a good way to do that. But truth is altogether different
 
When I say faith is not a pathway to truth, I meant it. I mean, if you believe in your particular view of God, and your reason is because of faith, then you haven't done anything, because your buddy might believe in a different version of God, and his faith tells him that this is so. How do you find out what is true?

"Gut feeling" apparently. Some people's guts are just more talkative than others.

This forum needs a Richard Dawkins thread. :p
 
I'll grant gut feelings. Sure.

However, as. Consistent pathway to truth, which is what I am talking about, faith is not a good method. It often has no explanatory power, whereas looking at evidence and actually working a problem has measurable results, and repeatable answers. That's the way to truth.
 
Isn't that Bible talks about...? :cardie: About humans' feelings and emotions in different life situations and how dealing with it certain ways can have different consequences...positive and negative.... Basically, it is talking about the livelihood of man.
 
Think you should review the Bible again. It makes a lot of claims, supposedly inpired by an all knowing being, but many claims throughout are plain wrong. And then this being continues to make mistake after mistake after mistake.
 
The Old Testament contradict the New Testament...I agree on that. However A lot of the New Testament talks about how having God in your heart helps people get through hard time. For example, in the book of Jobes his family was killed, but he refused to basically turned evil, or a blind eye to God. In the end he was rewarded with more bounty than he previously had. That is just describing the real life situation most accurately. If you be true to yourself and rough out through hard time, you will eventually come out happy again. Whereas if you instead chose to be narscarcist and selfish, you will loose big time. You don't feel good about yourself when you do something wrong, like killing people or just being mean to someone, and nobody likes jerks. This is like turning to Satin. That's why I say God is a powerful metaphor for a lot of people.
 
Back up.

It's not that the OT and the NT contradict each other. Not just that. It's that they are talking of the same God, right? You can't have the NT without the OT. sow how does one reconcile all of the death and questionable acts of the OT. and the NT is actually worse, promising an eternity of exclusion and hell simply for not having faith (in by the way, a being who is both god and the son of god,a violation of the first commandment) and by modeling your life after someone who is hardly perfect, who stormed into the temple with a whip and started slashing the moneychangers.

E point is, none of the bible is relevant to living a good life, or in assessing what is actually true about reality
 
I don't think our ancestors would survive 10 minutes without any kind of spiritual guide. If you go back to paleolithic era, life was very tough. People needed some kind of spiritual pathway to see them through hard time. Life is still full of suffering even today. That is still true! :cardie:
 
I don't think our ancestors would survive 10 minutes without any kind of spiritual guide. If you go back to paleolithic era, life was very tough. People needed some kind of spiritual pathway to see them through hard time. Life is still full of suffering even today. That is still true! :cardie:



or, they could've been inspired to make greater scientific discoveries at an earlier period in history because they weren't going around saying "God(or gods) did it!" every time there was a natural disaster or something.


but religion did provide a great sense of community and has done great stuff for social justice at times. Then again it's been used to justify racism and oppression at other times.


A very mixed bag.
 
See, "spiritual" is one of those troubling words, because it has different meanings to different people. But you were talking about God and the Bible and I was responding to the claims that are made in the Bible.
 
I don't think our ancestors would survive 10 minutes without any kind of spiritual guide. If you go back to paleolithic era, life was very tough. People needed some kind of spiritual pathway to see them through hard time. Life is still full of suffering even today. That is still true! :cardie:
The best way to use a message board is to read what the person above you typed and to respond to those words... not to change what you are talking about every post. I'm not saying that to patronize or criticize. I am saying that because this has little to do with the Bible.
 
I don't think our ancestors would survive 10 minutes without any kind of spiritual guide. If you go back to paleolithic era, life was very tough. People needed some kind of spiritual pathway to see them through hard time. Life is still full of suffering even today. That is still true! :cardie:



or, they could've been inspired to make greater scientific discoveries at an earlier period in history because they weren't going around saying "God(or gods) did it!" every time there was a natural disaster or something.


but religion did provide a great sense of community and has done great stuff for social justice at times. Then again it's been used to justify racism and oppression at other times.


A very mixed bag.

Ever heard of Ancient Rome conquering the Saxon on the British Isle. I'm sure the Romans had some sort of religion...! :cardie:
 
What happened in the future if there were no religions? How do you think people cope and make choices in their lives? Do you think they practice some kind of Vulcan mind meld? :lol:

Over a period time people will learn morals were always present with human beings even before religions and they will follow a more humanist philosophy. Instead of using coping skills that involve heaven and life after death...the lowest common denominator of choice and coping..they will use a more mature approach that includes knowledge of the subject, professional help, and relationships to other human beings.

Now of course this is not likely to happen in 300 years and probably never 100%. Humans will continue to take the easy way out of things and use religion as a crutch as long as they possbily can.


Edit: Back to Star Trek..in the ST universe, there is definitely religion!! I DESPISE the idea that Vulcans have gods, somehow they equated Vulcan secular ritual presented in Amok Time with RELIGION! Same with the Klingons, hated the they became religious at some point. VUCLANS DO NOT HAVE religious temples! They do not have priests. Somehow writers have a hard time differentiating rituals with religion..ugh. Edit 2: I FIND THIS to be the single most annoying thing about Star Trek. None of those things are in my personal "canon".

RAMA
 
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As far as I can tell, the Star Trek universe is one in which science has finally proved conclusively that God DOES exist, as do the various deities of other religions and civilizations. The problem with this is, once God is real, God now has to act like a real thing and has to take on a set of definable qualities and characteristics that make some logical sense. Since by definition this means God was found to be neither omnipotent nor omniscient (and certainly not omnibenevolent) most humans most humans gave up faith and found something more meaningful to believe in. Culturally speaking, it's the equivalent of a little kid discovering that all this time Santa Claus was really just his fat uncle in a big red suit and that the presents were put there by his parents.

Various races have handled this discovery various ways:
- The Klingons decided their gods were more trouble than they were worth, hunted them down and killed them.
- The Bajorans continue to worship the prophets anyway on the off chance that they'll some day get off their non-corporeal asses and PROTECT them from something, some day, ever.
- The Ferengi worship personified manifestations of their own greed; it's a Ferengi thing.
- Betazoids worship chocolate
- Androids worship Linux (and pray for deliverance from Microsoft)
- Space probes worship human beings
- The Vorta worship the founders
- The Founders worship Odo
- Odo worships Kira

:lol:Yes this is true...lots of gods in Trek are real world icons. In the real world as you say, gods are almost always found wanting, but with faith you can believe almost anything!! It has a much longer lifespan.

but if there is a god, how can anyone know which is the right religion to pick?
That is the fun of finding out about faiths and perhaps one day you will KNOW which one is correct. Hard to explane, but if you ever had it happened, you don't need to describe it.

In almost every case, people are BORN into religion. So no matter what you view becomes its colored by this. Yes, people still change religions, people lose religion, but almost everyone at some point had it. So let's not get kooky and suggest its a revelation to people because in most cases, its just not.

Also there definitely IS a god. Actually there are MANY gods, each one built upon a foundation of faith, that's their only basis of reality. I can sit here and tell you people have god(s). Is there a real, objectively existing god(s) who create/control things? Of course not.

RAMA
 
Paradon, do you really think religion is necessary for people to cope with anything in their lives? Why? What is wrong with facing something and dealing with it? And here is a hypothetical... What if we prove there is no god, or that the closest thing has characteristics that are not even remotely close to anything in any current or past religion? What happens then? Do you still believe just because?
 
I think they couldn't keep up that attitude for long. The lack of any type of spirituality or supernatural made it a cold, bland universe.

I think its the other way around, religion is a dark, backwards place to go. I think taking interest and delight in the workings of the incredible universe around us, that has more intricate wonder than anything that religion in its unimaginative, plodding view can manage is FAR more interesting and exciting.

RAMA
 
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