Music genres you don't 'get'

[lurok]

I wonder how important context is? Goliath menitoned opera earlier as a genre some people have problems with (certainly listening to). What I've found interesting is that when have taken opera virgins/antagonists to live performance, they've come away with new appreciation. Perhaps the same is true of other music?

 

[BlobVanDam]

Rap. What's the point? It has no melody.

It has no point. That's the point.

I agree, it's nothing but noise.

Earlier in this thread, I made the assertion that death metal was nothing but noise. I still don't like it particularly, but there can be good points to it, without the growling.

All music is more than noise.

Seriously, listen to (some of) these, I'm just going a bit overboard here, just giving you a selection, some well-known, others not so much, and tell me that rap has no point and is nothing but noise. Most of these are hip-hop, it's hard to find pure rap now, and the hip-hop element adds some melody to it. The rap adds a lot more to these songs than a sung verse would. Sometimes, it can get damn emotional.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btg76cNlXaA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wauIGhax9xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn6-c223DUU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSLZFdqwh7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVvzRw20sRI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgFyi74DVjc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAfFfqiYLp0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fTtyrHlusA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25LBTSUEU0A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrWDjpk3FQo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv5uWbszvB8

I used to hate rap, on principle, until I actually started listening to it, and I really began to appreciate it. It's still not my favourite genre, but it's one of them.

I listened to a few of these, and here are my thoughts.

First song - The female sung chorus was quite good, but the rap part was just silly imo. It was angry talking over a cheap phased drum beat, with little else musical behind it during the verses. I don't know how that can portray real emotion.

Second song was sung from the part I actually listened to, so no issues with that one.

Third one was fine until the rapping came in. It's like someone wrote a song, then some guy who can't contribute musically just starts talking over it instead. I still don't get it.

Fourth one, same deal. I hear music, and then I hear a guy doing that silly rap voice thing and talking over it. I just can't take it seriously.

Now the same negative arguments hold equally true for death growls. I find a lot of them silly. Much like you with rap, death metal isn't my favourite genre. In fact there are a limited number of them that I take seriously, but the good ones I really enjoy.
They don't try to portray heartfelt emotions or typically anything real. It's mostly intended to portray anger and fear and fictional themes, so they still work for me for their intended purpose. Rap usually deals with real issues and feelings, so they don't work to me. You'd think that being closer to speech than vocals that they could, but it doesn't work for me.
And as for having no musical purpose, I can't really defend death growls for that either. I just happen to like the sound, so that's personal preference, and they have more musical support from the band behind them to make up for it. In rap the song usually seems to take it down to basically just drum beat and talking. I know that talking is easier to stomach that emitting vomit sounds, but to me it doesn't contribute any timbre to the song on its own without that musical backing. Growls are a distinct sound for a distinct niche purpose.
Rap does require a sharp sense of rhythm, but it is still just skilled talking. Musically speaking, I have zero respect for that. That said, I don't respect growling on anywhere near the same level as singing either, but I happen to like the sound sometimes.
Basically what I'm saying is it's just my personal preference and opinion. The reason that death growls and rap are constantly compared is because of their similarities in terms of musicality, so I can't argue against rap and defend death growls without admitting it's nothing more than just personal preference.

 

[Count Zero]

Maybe something like this was already covered in Eyes' selection - due to copyright issues and geolocking only 3 or 4 of those songs play for me - but here's a song that's more in the rap territory and where I think the rapping works pretty well. I don't know how well it works if you don't understand the lyrics, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pgiEUHHmRw

This is another song that works very well in my opinion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iL_zQcknsw

(In this case it's fortunate most people won't understand the lyrics, they're very vulgar...)

I think the appeal of hip-hop/rap mainly lies in the rhythms and the energy those songs can provide.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I listened to a few of those also, Eyes. I get the appeal for some - it's good dance music, for one thing. And it requires rhythm and phrasing in order to make the rhyme come our correctly. So I do appreciate that talent is required.

But it still doesn't do much for me. Although this might be due partly to the fact that I don't really care for the pop-like music in between the verses either.

My 17 year old nephew cannot get enough rap though. He is selective - he likes Eminem, Dr. Dre and a few others (yes, I did watch the video where both of those guys were featured). But in truth, I'm marking his nearly exclusive love of rap down to the fact that there is not a ton of new rock that is a) really good; and b) getting a good amount of publicity among those of his demographic. At least not in this part of the world.

This is a kid who is reasonably well connected, goes to school in an upper middle-class neighborhood, has lots of friends, plays sports, goes to the prom, etc...but while he knows who Eminem is and he knows who Justine Bieber is (doesn't like him, but knows who he is), he has never heard of, say, Cage the Elephant. And those guys in that band are not much older than he is.

It's like rock does not even exist in his universe, except for classic rock (he knows and loves Queen, for example, and he likes Bruce Springsteen, I am proud to say...although his initial knowledge of Springsteen came from a 'music history' class - GAH! ). I just don't understand how this lack of knowledge of rock could possibly be for a kid who is by no means sheltered by a small group of friends or anything like that.

I really do not understand how kids today in his position can be completely out of the loop where rock is concerned. It blows my mind that he knows so little about it.

 

[Eyes]

Well, I'm the same age as your nephew, and from my perspective, there just isn't very much new rock at all.

I personally hadn't heard of Cage The Elephant until Shake Me Down was released, and I heard it on Radio 1.

My friends, and dare I say it, me as well, are actually in a similar position to your nephew, rock is going through a really tough time. Sing, by My Chemical Romance has been no.1 on the rock chart for the past three weeks, despite, on the official charts, only getting 60, 50, and 83 respectively. This chart doesn't include all rock, but it's a sure sign that the genre is going through a tough period.

And my friends and me listen to a lot of what's in the charts and what's on Radio 1 (the main British station. It plays a lot of urban music, pop, and a bit of indie rock, but it's the first two genres that stand out more than the third).

Only a few, like the Wombats and Noah and the Whale (atm) are actually getting through to us, as songs that we remember. We're more likely to remember other songs (that Eminem/Dre song I posted has actually been one of our anthems this term).

I see where your nephew is coming from, and those few bands that are getting through to us, they're mostly British, so I'd guess they don't even have that.

It's the genres of the time, really. Back when rock was having it's heyday, rap was hardly around (actually, it wasn't around).

 

[BlobVanDam]

I'm marking his nearly exclusive love of rap down to the fact that there is not a ton of new rock that is a) really good; and b) getting a good amount of publicity among those of his demographic. At least not in this part of the world.

As a big rock fan myself, even I sometimes find it difficult to find good new rock, at least from new bands. All of the good new rock and metal is less mainstream than it was in the 70s and 80s (and even the 90s, although rock was terrible in the 90s anyway).
I'm pretty fussy with my rock too. Most stuff that gets called hard rock these days is either just straight up heavy metal, or wannabe classic rock knock offs. There is still good rock to be found, but unless you're looking for it, you won't find it.

 

[lurok]

I really do not understand how kids today in his position can be completely out of the loop where rock is concerned. It blows my mind that he knows so little about it.

Sit him down in front of a DVD of School of Rock. Would be a start...

 

[Count Zero]

It's like rock does not even exist in his universe, except for classic rock (he knows and loves Queen, for example, and he likes Bruce Springsteen, I am proud to say...although his initial knowledge of Springsteen came from a 'music history' class - GAH! ). I just don't understand how this lack of knowledge of rock could possibly be for a kid who is by no means sheltered by a small group of friends or anything like that.

I really do not understand how kids today in his position can be completely out of the loop where rock is concerned. It blows my mind that he knows so little about it.

Now you know how friends of 'classical' music feel.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I see where your nephew is coming from, and those few bands that are getting through to us, they're mostly British, so I'd guess they don't even have that.

It's the genres of the time, really. Back when rock was having it's heyday, rap was hardly around (actually, it wasn't around).

Well, rock was still in it's heyday in the 90's and rap was very much around. It was on the radio in Anchorage, Alaska (where I lived in the early 90's) right next to grunge like Nirvana and Pearl Jam and the arena bands of the day like Queen, U2, Bon Jovi and Guns n Roses. That was all Top 40 music back then though. The only real pop that was around at that time was Elton John and people like that, a few bands from the UK or OZ/NZ like Crowded House, plus the boy bands like Backstreet Boys, etc.

Yeah - I know there is less rock coming out these days, but there is some. It's just getting lost in the shuffle, I guess, since there is so little of it, by comparison.

As a big rock fan myself, even I sometimes find it difficult to find good new rock, at least from new bands. All of the good new rock and metal is less mainstream than it was in the 70s and 80s (and even the 90s, although rock was terrible in the 90s anyway).

Well, I take issue with your comment that rock was terrible in the 90's. My favorite sub-genre of rock is grunge, and that took up pretty much the whole first half of the 90's. Two of my three favorite bands of all time are grunge bands (Pearl Jam, Alice In Chains)...and if I were to do a top 10 or top 20, you'd see even more grunge bands than that!

I can't say I'm as big a fan of the late 90's bands (post grunge)...but all of those Seattle grunge bands and their non-Seattle contemporaries like Stone Temple Pilots, and even Nine Inch Nails (although they are more industrial)? They were all over the early 90's, and I loved them. STILL love them, in fact.

Now you know how friends of 'classical' music feel.

Erm...I guess you did not read my initial post in this thread, because I AM a 'friend of classical music'. Shoot, until the economy went south and I had to make cutbacks, I was one of those who had had season tickets to the symphony for YEARS. So believe me, I know how classical music fans feel, because I am one myself. And an Opera fan as well.

Interestingly, my other nephew (the older brother of the one I just described) was my 'partner' for those season tickets to the symphony - I treated him for several years, once he expressed an interest in classical music. And just as my younger nephew's iPod is filled with only rap and hip hop, my older nephew's iPod is filled with only classical. Only he gets his music for free, because he gets it from me! My younger nephew has to buy his own, because I do not own any rap/hip-hop CDs.

Still, neither one of them knows much of anything about rock, except that they both love Queen.

 

[Goliath]

What's the difference between a viola and an onion?

Nobody cries when you chop up a viola.

 

[BlobVanDam]

As a big rock fan myself, even I sometimes find it difficult to find good new rock, at least from new bands. All of the good new rock and metal is less mainstream than it was in the 70s and 80s (and even the 90s, although rock was terrible in the 90s anyway).

Well, I take issue with your comment that rock was terrible in the 90's. My favorite sub-genre of rock is grunge, and that took up pretty much the whole first half of the 90's. Two of my three favorite bands of all time are grunge bands (Pearl Jam, Alice In Chains)...and if I were to do a top 10 or top 20, you'd see even more grunge bands than that!

I can't say I'm as big a fan of the late 90's bands (post grunge)...but all of those Seattle grunge bands and their non-Seattle contemporaries like Stone Temple Pilots, and even Nine Inch Nails (although they are more industrial)? They were all over the early 90's, and I loved them. STILL love them, in fact.

Well I firmly believe that grunge is what dug rock music into the giant shithole so deep that has taken 20 years to dig itself out of, and is only just starting to recover. So when I say rock was terrible in the 90s, that's exactly the kind of music I'm talking about.
My favourite rock music was all extremely early '90s at the tail end of the hair metal era, with stuff like Steelheart, Skid Row, Roxy Blue, and a lot of old bands releasing great albums, before grunge got popular and record companies just pushed the trend, and all of the good bands either broke up or tried to jump on the bandwagon releasing awful albums.
Sorry, didn't mean to rant, but I cannot stand what became of rock in the 90s. Big sore point.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Well I firmly believe that grunge is what dug rock music into the giant shithole so deep that has taken 20 years to dig itself out of, and is only just starting to recover. So when I say rock was terrible in the 90s, that's exactly the kind of music I'm talking about.
My favourite rock music was all extremely early '90s at the tail end of the hair metal era, with stuff like Steelheart, Skid Row, Roxy Blue, and a lot of old bands releasing great albums, before grunge got popular and record companies just pushed the trend, and all of the good bands either broke up or tried to jump on the bandwagon releasing awful albums.
Sorry, didn't mean to rant, but I cannot stand what became of rock in the 90s. Big sore point.

Well, to each their own, I suppose. But after a decade of hair bands, I was kind of ready for a change. I have no way of knowing how old you are or if you were watching MTV from the time it went on the air in the early 80's forward...but I was...and I'm here to tell you that I was so sick and tired of big bloated arena hair band shows I was ready to hurl. And don't even get me started on the hair band gimmicks that had nothing to do with music, but more with stupid theatrics - everything from KISS's makeup to Ozzy doing shit like biting off the head of a chicken or whatever-the-fuck. And there were quite a few of those bands who were out of steam or their gimmick was wearing off. Twisted Sister, anyone? Quiet Riot? Does anyone even know who these bands are today? Probably not...because they were just that forgettable after their first couple of top 40 hits.

Grunge, to me, was like a breath of fresh air. Finally, someone was doing something other than trying to imitate another band who already existed, right down to their clothing and hair styles. Hair band rock was old and stale, and the players were having to resort to more and more ridiculous antics all the time to keep it interesting. Because it certainly wasn't going anywhere new by the late 80's. Grunge was real - it wasn't about silly clothes and ridiculous theatrics or who could put on the coolest light show. And we loved that.

That was my read, anyway. And I say this as someone who went to a LOT of concerts in the 80's. What Madison Avenue DID with gunge is another whole matter. But that had nothing to do with the bands themselves. They all thought it was stupid as fuck that flannel shirts would be purchased by people in Southern California for $100 a pop, when the only reason they wore them to begin with was because Seattle is cold, and flannel was cheap and they were all broke as hell.

You never did say exactly WHY you disliked grunge. So I can't speak to your reasons. But if your chief reason is because you think it 'killed' your hair bands, that was so not the case. We were long overdue for a change. Just like how, at the beginning of the 80's we had been due for a change and got what we used to term 'new wave' (ie, The Police, Culture Club, Duran Duran, Cindy Lauper, etc.) and punk (The Clash, The Sex Pistols, etc).

Those bands did not 'ruin' 70's music (most of which totally sucked anyway, IMO, but some do not feel that way) - they just took music in a different creative direction. Which was fine because I would assume that a lot of people at that time were WAY tired of Donna Summer. There was nothing more to 'create' with disco at the end of the 70's...and there was nothing more to 'create' with hair bands at the end of the 80's. They were tired sub-genres and they needed a rest.

I think you are giving grunge WAY too much of the blame for 'ruining your music'. If people hadn't wanted a change because they were sick and tired of 'your music', grunge would have never caught on. Shit, Seattle was practically a podunk town at that point. It never would have gotten out of Seattle if people weren't ready for something other than arguing about who was better: David Lee Roth or Sammy Hagar. We'd been arguing about that for 5 years - we were TIRED or arguing about that. And we were tired of Axel Rose being a dickwad. And we were tired of being annoyed with Steve Perry for leaving Journey. And we had finally realized just how stupid-ass dumb KISS actually looked.

It was just time for a change. And if it hadn't been grunge, it would have been something else. And it could have been something much worse.

I would love to know what you think is so godawful terrible about the following videos, both of which were recorded before mid-1992:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xQQzi0IdLY[/yt]

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckRsIy4Zqgo&feature=related[/yt]

Because when I saw or heard similar recordings, they came across to me as raw and real and in-your-face. Not over synthesized, outrageously dressed, hair-teased theatrics. And that's why I loved them.

 

[BlobVanDam]

You're right that they weren't entirely responsible for killing off hair metal. Most of the hair metal bands either imploded by that point, or tried to change their sound instead of sticking to what they were good at (and usually with completely different line-ups to the ones that made it big). Big egos like that don't lend themselves to staying together. And very few of the albums they released during the 90s were any good.

But to me that raw and real grunge sound was just average guys with little charisma playing average music, with no stage presence. What's appealing about that? To me it's just a downgrade from what came before it, and has dated badly for it despite being so recent.

KISS had not worn the makeup for almost a decade by the time grunge was big (and probably about as long since Ozzy bit the head off a bat). I don't know how you were sick of it by the time grunge came around considering they were long done by that point. Metal was already evolving and toning down by that point. KISS weren't wearing the makeup, and had even ditched the pink spandex of the 80s. They were looking very cool during the Revenge era. But there's nothing wrong with theatrics and stage presence. If the music is good anyway, what's wrong with enhancing that? When I go to a concert, I pay to see a show, not a bunch of guys standing around on a stage. I don't mean you need a laser light show, inflatable woman, and a stonehenge set as a crutch, but at least dress like you acknowledge that I just paid you a decent chunk of money to watch you perform, instead of looking like you just came from your day job at the checkout. Grunge was like wearing sneakers and shorts to a wedding.

But few of these grunge bands survived the 90s (aside from your examples, obviously). And yet look at how many of these rock bands came back after the grunge phase wore off, and many have done the biggest tours of their careers. Grunge was just a phase. But the '80s rock survived. KISS, Ozzy, Motley Crue, Van Halen, Whitesnake, all doing just fine.
And in the past few years the sound is starting to make a comeback. Not in popular music of course, as real rock hasn't been mainstream for a long time, but plenty of new bands are still interested in that sound. Thank God for Sweden!

 

[Rincewiend]

Until a couple of years ago, I had pretty much no interest in anything that wasn't 80s-90s pop or rock.

Then I discovered Evanescence, and I've sort of branched into metal - Within Temptation and We Are the Fallen at least; I haven't found much else I like. I really only like female vocalists and HATE that growling stuff.

Never had any interest whatsoever in rap, techno or anything like that. Powerful singing and a good tune are what I look for in music.

Try these bands:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBe3JoVlHQI[/yt]

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0ABfmemS_8[/yt]

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eecFm2iRo7Q[/yt]


And i too don't get the screaming/growling music appeal, stuff like this:
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec4Qgd0i9IQ[/yt]

And some of the more boring dance/house music...

 

[RandyS]

Rap. What's the point? It has no melody.

It has no point. That's the point.

I agree, it's nothing but noise.

Earlier in this thread, I made the assertion that death metal was nothing but noise. I still don't like it particularly, but there can be good points to it, without the growling.

All music is more than noise.

Seriously, listen to (some of) these, I'm just going a bit overboard here, just giving you a selection, some well-known, others not so much, and tell me that rap has no point and is nothing but noise. Most of these are hip-hop, it's hard to find pure rap now, and the hip-hop element adds some melody to it. The rap adds a lot more to these songs than a sung verse would. Sometimes, it can get damn emotional.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btg76cNlXaA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wauIGhax9xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn6-c223DUU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSLZFdqwh7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVvzRw20sRI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgFyi74DVjc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAfFfqiYLp0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fTtyrHlusA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25LBTSUEU0A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrWDjpk3FQo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv5uWbszvB8

I used to hate rap, on principle, until I actually started listening to it, and I really began to appreciate it. It's still not my favourite genre, but it's one of them.

Well thanks, but my opinion stands.

Of course, it helps that one of my neighbor's kids blasts this noise from his bedroom window every damn night. Enough of the neighborhood has complained that it's tapered off some, but I've still heard enough to know I don't like it.

Personally, I'd rather listen to Dan Folgerberg, whatever genre he falls under.

 

[Goliath]

To me it's just a downgrade from what came before it, and has dated badly for it despite being so recent.

Don't worry. It'll sound fresh again in twenty years.

There's nothing older than yesterday's news.

 

[JayOwl]

It has no point. That's the point.

I agree, it's nothing but noise.

Earlier in this thread, I made the assertion that death metal was nothing but noise. I still don't like it particularly, but there can be good points to it, without the growling.

All music is more than noise.

Seriously, listen to (some of) these, I'm just going a bit overboard here, just giving you a selection, some well-known, others not so much, and tell me that rap has no point and is nothing but noise. Most of these are hip-hop, it's hard to find pure rap now, and the hip-hop element adds some melody to it. The rap adds a lot more to these songs than a sung verse would. Sometimes, it can get damn emotional.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btg76cNlXaA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wauIGhax9xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn6-c223DUU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSLZFdqwh7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVvzRw20sRI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgFyi74DVjc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAfFfqiYLp0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fTtyrHlusA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25LBTSUEU0A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrWDjpk3FQo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv5uWbszvB8

Ok, being his brother I may be slightly biased but I have to agree. Try the last one: Let It Rain, it's probably the mildest, and the parts at the end - "Now we finally see, in fact we all believe" is absolutely epic.
Written in the Stars; (I think it's the fifth) is also brilliant. If you like it you could try Invincible by the same artist.

Rap is an aquired taste. When I got into music properly, only about a year ago, I hated rap, it just sounded like noise, or talking in amoungst a song. It's only been since September/October last year I really began to like it, the first one being Love The Way You Lie: Eminem & Rihanna.

May I just say, even though it may seem I'm hugely into rap, most of the time I can't stand straight rap, and I don't like all of it.

 

[neozeks]

Rap is an aquired taste. When I got into music properly, only about a year ago, I hated rap, it just sounded like noise, or talking in amoungst a song. It's only been since September/October last year I really began to like it, the first one being Love The Way You Lie: Eminem & Rihanna.

May I just say, even though it may seem I'm hugely into rap, most of the time I can't stand straight rap, and I don't like all of it.

I'm quite similar. I couldn't stand rap for a long time. Then a certain piece of old-school knocked me out and changed my mind :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vimZj8HW0Kg

So I decided to explore a bit. I still don't really like most of the usual suspects like Eminem or Kanye West. But I've found a lot of stuff that I do like, though it's generally more atypical and melodic, I guess, than straight rap. Would you people that dislike rap even consider all of these to be rap? (Or is it hip-hop? I was never sure what exactly the difference is)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXgY7NoEzYo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYlUvkosuCo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Et1siZhTk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IidSRvnWbyc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs-MeZBGJ_k

 

[PKTrekGirl]

But to me that raw and real grunge sound was just average guys with little charisma playing average music, with no stage presence. What's appealing about that? To me it's just a downgrade from what came before it, and has dated badly for it despite being so recent.

Well, I disagree in the the 'average guys' playing 'average music' with 'no stage presence'.

First, are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that Layne Staley, as featured in that video I posted, was only an 'average' singer? Good grief - the guy was amazingly talented. Better than any singer I can think of in any hair band, past or present.

And Vedder was/is great too - I've always loved that 'golden baritone' thing he has going on. I was tired of all of these guys singing (and screeching) up in the high registers. And I loved to watch Eddie Vedder sing back then. He's not a big guy - 5' 7", I think. But wow - you have to admit that in the video, a LOT of sound sure comes out of him. And stage presence? Are you frakkin' kiddin' me? Did you even watch the same video I did? Because, speaking purely as a girl, I can tell you that even 20 years later, that video gets me all hot and bothered. That whole testosterone-fueled hyperdrive he used to have? My GOD - it was the sexiest fuckin' thing EVER.

And then we get to Chris Cornell. What a range! Not sure how you could say that he was just 'average'.

And as for 'average songs'...that is just laughable. Here are the lyrics to Pearl Jam's "Black":

Sheets of empty canvas, untouched sheets of clay
Were laid spread out before me as her body once did.
All five horizons revolved around her soul
As the earth to the sun
Now the air I tasted and breathed has taken a turn

Ooh, and all I taught her was everything
Ooh, I know she gave me all that she wore
And now my bitter hands chafe beneath the clouds
Of what was everything.
Oh, the pictures have all been washed in black, tattooed everything...

I take a walk outside
I'm surrounded by some kids at play
I can feel their laughter, so why do I sear?
Oh, and twisted thoughts that spin round my head
I'm spinning, oh, I'm spinning
How quick the sun can drop away

And now my bitter hands cradle broken glass
Of what was everything?
All the pictures have all been washed in black, tattooed everything...

All the love gone bad turned my world to black
Tattooed all I see, all that I am, all I'll be... yeah...
Uh huh... uh huh... ooh...

I know someday you'll have a beautiful life,
I know you'll be a sun in somebody else's sky, but why
Why, why can't it be, can't it be mine


Now, do I need to post the lyrics of songs like "Smokin' in the Boy's Room" (Motley Crue), "Legs" (ZZ Top - most sexist song EVER), "Hot For The Teacher" (Van Halen - well, okay, so ZZ Top didn't have THE most sexist song ever ), "Cum on Feel The Noize" (Quiet Riot ), "We're Not Gonna Take It" (Twisted Sister) etc for comparison? I mean, those were some of those bands most popular songs from the 80's - I didn't just pick some obscure song or anything to get to these little gems of songwriting 'ability'. The hair bands spent pretty much the entire 80's singing about hot girls, hot cars, and partying. Most superficial topics EVER. Are you really gonna seriously put that up against some of Chris Cornell's lyrics? Or Vedder's? And claim with a straight face that the two of them were only average by comparison?

I'm sorry...but I'm not buyin' what you are selling when it comes to 'average songs'. Not when the most popular hair metal bands hit the top of the charts with songs like the above.

KISS had not worn the makeup for almost a decade by the time grunge was big (and probably about as long since Ozzy bit the head off a bat). I don't know how you were sick of it by the time grunge came around considering they were long done by that point.

Which only shows you just how utterly irrelevant KISS and Ozzy were in the 80's - not the 90's but the 80's. Because I don't know where you were...but I spent most of that decade in front of MTV, and the only time either of them ever made an appearance was during Headbangers Ball, and I'm not even certain of that! So I had no idea what they were doing. Nor did I remotely care.

Grunge didn't push out KISS and Ozzy - they were already so irrelevant as to basically be joke material for most of the 80's. Or don't you remember that? Because that is how I remember their 80's reputation - as jokes, based on those stupid-ass theatrics they had done.

But there's nothing wrong with theatrics and stage presence. If the music is good anyway, what's wrong with enhancing that? When I go to a concert, I pay to see a show, not a bunch of guys standing around on a stage. I don't mean you need a laser light show, inflatable woman, and a stonehenge set as a crutch, but at least dress like you acknowledge that I just paid you a decent chunk of money to watch you perform, instead of looking like you just came from your day job at the checkout. Grunge was like wearing sneakers and shorts to a wedding.

Exactly how many rock concerts did you attend in the 80's? Because I don't remember the fans dressing up for any of them (except for shows like Billy Idol - and that wasn't in nice clothes, but in faux-punk shit). Nor do I remember a SINGLE fan commenting on the onstage attire of rock stars. And seriously - I went to dozens and dozens of concerts in the 80's. Shoot - THE most popular rock star of the 80's was Bruce Springsteen, and while I've been to multiple Springsteen shows, I have NEVER seen him dress in anything other than something you could wear while working on a construction site. And I mean, seriously - it does not GET any bigger than Springsteen in the 80's.

Really - how many of these shows did you attend? Because I did not go to a Van Halen show to see what David Lee Roth would frakkin' WEAR. That was a non-reason to see Van Halen. In fact, it all started looking a bit silly...and I'm GLAD grunge did away with that silliness.

I really am curious as to how old you were in the 80's, how much time you spent in front of MTV during that decade, and what kind of concerts you went to. Because you are remembering that decade quite differently than I do.

But few of these grunge bands survived the 90s (aside from your examples, obviously). And yet look at how many of these rock bands came back after the grunge phase wore off, and many have done the biggest tours of their careers. Grunge was just a phase. But the '80s rock survived. KISS, Ozzy, Motley Crue, Van Halen, Whitesnake, all doing just fine.

Well, first of all, as a fan of Van Halen myself, if you think they are doing 'just fine' you are on frakkin' crack. And if you don't know the reasons why I'd say that, a simple trip to Wikipedia will apprise you of the situation. Lord knows I once thought Eddie Van Halen to be one of the top guitarists in history...but now? The guy is completely washed up. And David Lee Roth? He's a joke - an old man trying to relive his glory days. The word I would use these days to characterize DLR? "Pathetic" fits quite well. But definitely not 'just fine'. As for the rest of them, I think Ozzy has done okay (although more as a TV star than a rock star)...but the rest of them? I never hear about them at all...and the glimpses I've gotten of Gene Simmons? That right there is some scary-ass shit. And NOT in a good way.

As for all the grunge bands you said 'didn't make it out of the 90's', the implication being that they were talentless hacks and everyone finally figured that out? That is REALLY unfair, not to mention grossly inaccurate. Let's take a look what happened to the main grunge bands:

1. Nirvana- Kurt Cobain killed himself (and not because everyone figured out he lacked talent, either ); Dave Grohl started Foo Fighters, which is still popular.
2. Pearl Jam - Still going, celebrating 20 years this year. Hugely successful.
3. Soundgarden - split up in 1997 (although they are reunited now and are working on an album after a very successful set of dates, and have recently scheduled more dates). However, in the interim Chris Cornell was very successful with Audioslave and with his solo career (won some awards for work on Casino Royale, even), Matt Cameron become Pearl Jam's drummer in 1998 and has been there ever since.
4. Alice In Chains - despite the fact that TWO of their original 4 members are now dead from drugs, AIC soldiers on. Considering the fact that during the height of their popularity in the mid 90's they couldn't even tour because Layne was so sick, and they stopped touring completely soon after for the same reason, their continuing popularity speaks volumes about the level of this band's talent and the devotion of their fans. And oh yeah...Jerry Cantrell has had a few reasonably successful solo efforts too.
5. Mudhoney - still together and making records. Were never that huge in the 90's except to hardcore grunge fans, among whom they are still popular.
6. The Melvins - still together and making records. Same deal as Mudhoney.
7. Screaming Trees - broke up in 2000. Former lead singer Mark Lanegan had some success as a solo artist, Josh Homme has had good success as a founding member of Queens of the Stone Age and Them Crooked Vultures (among other projects), both of which are still going and are quite successful.
8. Stone Temple Pilots - not from Seattle, but is considered grunge by pretty much everyone except the snobbiest of grunge fans (most of whom actually live in Seattle) - still together and successful.
9. The Gits - lead singer (a female) was raped and murdered on the streets of Seattle in 1993. I'd say that was a pretty good reason to break up a band, wouldn't you? Oh..and she was not raped and murdered because everyone finally realized she had no talent.
10. Hole - still exists as a band and even put out a reasonably successful record a few years back, no thanks to the fact that Courtney Love is fucking NUTS.
11. Tad - never really had much success outside of Seattle (despite Kurt Cobain's assistance) so you can't really say that they didn't make it out of the 90's. They really didn't even make it IN the 90's. But I include them anyway because they were important in Seattle itself.

And in the past few years the sound is starting to make a comeback. Not in popular music of course, as real rock hasn't been mainstream for a long time, but plenty of new bands are still interested in that sound. Thank God for Sweden!

Sorry...I just don't have a lot of confidence in Scandinavian bands...ever since I saw Nightwish and thought . Talk about overbloated....I don't know WHAT. I mean, this is a band that covers Andrew Lloyd Frakkin' WEBBER, fer cryin' out loud!

Seriously...I really think the cultural differences are too great to generate massive appeal for these bands in the US.

 

[Jetfire]

Sorry...I just don't have a lot of confidence in Scandinavian bands...

Drain STH was a great band from Sweden with a "grunge" sound...but they don't make music anymore.