The the Trill

[Tuvoks_partner]

I'm watching the Next Generation from Beginning to end, and I notice when they introduced the Trill, the one on Next-Gen Looks different from theTrills on DS9. Why? has that ever been explained? are their two humanoid races on Trill?
Also, both the Trill on Next-Gen (I don't remember his name, and yes, I'm to lazy to look it up) and Curzon Dax were Federation Ambassadors, and it doesn't seem uncommon for Trills to serve in Starfleet. Is Trill a member of the Federation? Thanks.

 

[Distorted Humor]

I'm watching the Next Generation from Beginning to end, and I notice when they introduced the Trill, the one on Next-Gen Looks different from theTrills on DS9. Why? has that ever been explained? are their two humanoid races on Trill?
Also, both the Trill on Next-Gen (I don't remember his name, and yes, I'm to lazy to look it up) and Curzon Dax were Federation Ambassadors, and it doesn't seem uncommon for Trills to serve in Starfleet. Is Trill a member of the Federation? Thanks.

The real reason - Terry Farrel who played the first Dax looked ugly with the TNG Trill makeup, and they did some tests and then basically went with the spots. (It is close to the Kriosian makup which keeps a good looking actress good looking, the same holds true for the Bajorian makeup, as that makeup was designed to make Michelle Forbes still look good. )

There is a lot of issues with the TNG and DS9 Trills, This goes into more detail, though I think the makeup issues are mentioned in the DS9 DVD extras as well.

This is a detailed study on the issue is located here

Ex Astris Scientia Trills




I go by the what this says as well, that TNG Trills are not the same species as DS9 Trills. And it might of been better to name the DS9 race something else.

 

[Timo]

Of course, we don't really have a reason to believe that there would be any humanoid species called the Trill.

Judging solely by the episodes, it's the slugs that are called Trill by species name; everybody else is merely a citizen of planet Trill. And they have always been capable of living in more than one kind of humanoid body: in "The Host", both a ridgeheaded species and Homo sapiens were found compatible.

For all we know, neither of those was ideal for the slugs, though. They would have chosen the optimal host type through experimentation, and most would have ended up using Kriosians, the species that Dax apparently is a member of (just go see "The Perfect Mate" and "Precious Cargo" for confirmation)...

I know that in "Eqilibrium", it's claimed that only a select few members of the one and only (Kriosian-looking) host type are compatible with the slugs. But at the conclusion of that episode, this is revealed to be a big fat lie. So there's no inconsistency there, and no limitation on the type of humanoid face that a Trill can take. For all we know, there are a few Klingon Trills and Pakled Trills out there, too.

..it doesn't seem uncommon for Trills to serve in Starfleet. Is Trill a member of the Federation?

There are Klingons, Ferengi and Bajorans in Starfleet, too. Doesn't mean Klingons, Ferengi or Bajorans would be members of the Federation.

And Kurzon Dax was a respected negotiator mediating the UFP-Klingon crisis. Sounds like he was a neutral character, hence probably not a UFP citizen at all. Perhaps Trill was a member but Curzon has expatriated himself; more probably, Trill wasn't a member, and never became one during the course of the various Trek series.

Terry Farrel who played the first Dax looked ugly with the TNG Trill makeup

From what I've read, she also got a bad allergic reaction from the full makeup, and had to be given the most superficial paint job only. Of course, always the masochist, Westmore turned that "superficial" job into a painstaking application of complex art, which he signed after each application... The story doesn't tell where the signature went.

Interestingly, since each application was unique, we're apparently to believe that the spots on the spotted Trill hosts move around. But that was always true of the Kriosians...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RandyS]

I'm watching the Next Generation from Beginning to end, and I notice when they introduced the Trill, the one on Next-Gen Looks different from theTrills on DS9. Why? has that ever been explained? are their two humanoid races on Trill?

Odan was a northern Trill, while Jadzia, Ezri, and Curzon were southern Trills.

 

[Tuvoks_partner]

I'm watching the Next Generation from Beginning to end, and I notice when they introduced the Trill, the one on Next-Gen Looks different from theTrills on DS9. Why? has that ever been explained? are their two humanoid races on Trill?
Also, both the Trill on Next-Gen (I don't remember his name, and yes, I'm to lazy to look it up) and Curzon Dax were Federation Ambassadors, and it doesn't seem uncommon for Trills to serve in Starfleet. Is Trill a member of the Federation? Thanks.

The real reason - Terry Farrel who played the first Dax looked ugly with the TNG Trill makeup, and they did some tests and then basically went with the spots. (It is close to the Kriosian makup which keeps a good looking actress good looking, the same holds true for the Bajorian makeup, as that makeup was designed to make Michelle Forbes still look good. )

There is a lot of issues with the TNG and DS9 Trills, This goes into more detail, though I think the makeup issues are mentioned in the DS9 DVD extras as well.

This is a detailed study on the issue is located here

Ex Astris Scientia Trills




I go by the what this says as well, that TNG Trills are not the same species as DS9 Trills. And it might of been better to name the DS9 race something else.

Thanks!

 

[Tuvoks_partner]

Of course, we don't really have a reason to believe that there would be any humanoid species called the Trill.

Judging solely by the episodes, it's the slugs that are called Trill by species name; everybody else is merely a citizen of planet Trill. And they have always been capable of living in more than one kind of humanoid body: in "The Host", both a ridgeheaded species and Homo sapiens were found compatible.

For all we know, neither of those was ideal for the slugs, though. They would have chosen the optimal host type through experimentation, and most would have ended up using Kriosians, the species that Dax apparently is a member of (just go see "The Perfect Mate" and "Precious Cargo" for confirmation)...

I know that in "Eqilibrium", it's claimed that only a select few members of the one and only (Kriosian-looking) host type are compatible with the slugs. But at the conclusion of that episode, this is revealed to be a big fat lie. So there's no inconsistency there, and no limitation on the type of humanoid face that a Trill can take. For all we know, there are a few Klingon Trills and Pakled Trills out there, too.

..it doesn't seem uncommon for Trills to serve in Starfleet. Is Trill a member of the Federation?

There are Klingons, Ferengi and Bajorans in Starfleet, too. Doesn't mean Klingons, Ferengi or Bajorans would be members of the Federation.

And Kurzon Dax was a respected negotiator mediating the UFP-Klingon crisis. Sounds like he was a neutral character, hence probably not a UFP citizen at all. Perhaps Trill was a member but Curzon has expatriated himself; more probably, Trill wasn't a member, and never became one during the course of the various Trek series.

Terry Farrel who played the first Dax looked ugly with the TNG Trill makeup

From what I've read, she also got a bad allergic reaction from the full makeup, and had to be given the most superficial paint job only. Of course, always the masochist, Westmore turned that "superficial" job into a painstaking application of complex art, which he signed after each application... The story doesn't tell where the signature went.

Interestingly, since each application was unique, we're apparently to believe that the spots on the spotted Trill hosts move around. But that was always true of the Kriosians...

Timo Saloniemi

"it doesn't seem uncommon for Trills to serve in Starfleet. Is Trill a member of the Federation-Timo Saloniemi"

You totally missed my point here. In combination with all the evidence that Trills are highly active in the Federation: Starfleet, Ambassadors, Scientist that have access to Federation property (The Defiant for example), the Federation consult Trill scientist (how best to collapse the wormhole), The Trill are very active in multi-levels of Federation operations. Perhaps I wasn't clear, but that's where I was coming from when I made my statement about Trills and Starfleet.

It is very clear to anyone who have watched any series completely that Ferengi, Klingons, Bajorans, etc are not Federations citizens; all they needed was a letter from a Command level officer to enter the academy. But you don't see any of them at the highest levels of Federation operations, i.e.-Government, Science, etc, that is the difference. So again, does this mean the Trills are citizens of the Federation, I personally don't see the U.S. letting, lets say, a Canadian Negotiate a peace treaty with one of our most lethal enemies...

 

[Distorted Humor]

DS9 Trills, of the spots, by all appearances (Many Starfleet members, and it not being noteworthy, and regular interaction with Trills serving in Federation science, diplomatic, and other endeavors, they are by all accounts full members, and while not as famous as Humans or Vulcans, they appear to be key key members like Bolians, and perhaps as major as Betazeds. They also have had long contact with Vulcans and Humans. (For those who do not think Trills are members, why does other political groups have treaties with the federation dealing with the Trills involving extradition ("Dax") In addition, it is clear that the symbiont is co-equal to the host, and they merge. Among many other things.

TNG trills the symboint is actually called a parasite, takes over the entire host with no merging, has dissimilar makeup, and is a mostly unknown race, to the point that a leading medical professional in the federation did not know that it was a joined species. The producers should of called Dax species something else, but the TNG Trills cannot be the same as the trills seen in DS9.

Just my .02 Lira, for what is worth

 

[T'Girl]

It is very clear to anyone who have watched any series completely that Ferengi, Klingons, Bajorans, etc are not Federations citizens

It's very obvious that Worf (a Klingon national) is a Federation citizen, probably a United Earth citizen as well. Worf actually has multiple citizenship's (bad at tax time). So a races home world doesn't have to be a Federation member for a member of that race to become a Federation citizen, you likely simply have to apply for immigration and citizenship. Given the seeming "special relationship" between the Federation and the Bajorian people, it would be easy to imagine Bajorian refuges by the hundreds of thousands becoming citizens. Lieutenant Saavik (supposedly) was half Romulan born outside the Federation, I always saw her as a Vulcan citizen and by extension a Federation citizen.

But you don't see any of them at the highest levels of Federation operations, i.e.-Government, Science, etc

Worf goes on after his Starfleet career to be the Federation ambassador to the Klingon Empire, ambassadors are usually highly placed in any government. A Ferengi scientist was invited aboard the Enterprise to engage in a research project with Doctor Crusher. During TUC the Federation president brought in the Romulan ambassador to consult with concerning the Klingons.

I personally don't see the U.S. letting, lets say, a Canadian Negotiate a peace treaty with one of our most lethal enemies...

Since the United States rarely enters into wars all by ourselves, it fairly common for multiple nations have a part in our peace treaties and surrenders. The Canadians were member of the coalition force in the 1991 Gulf War and had a voice in the treaty that ended that war.

While the bulk of the US military are US citizens, foreign citizens can be enlisted personnel (but not officers), Starfleet might extend this practice to it's officers as well.

why does other political groups have treaties with the federation dealing with the Trills involving extradition ("Dax")

Even if the planet Trill wasn't a Federation member, Dax was a Starfleet member.

 

[Myasishchev]

More importantly, why aren't the Trill a little fatter? The symbiote--sorry, symbiont, I'm thinking of Eddie Brock's life partner and illiterate Spider-Man writers--just vanishes. Maybe the Trill have slug slots next to their spleens. Gross.

Also, did anyone actually buy that they couldn't be removed? I think they'd have had better luck just claiming it was psychologically damaging, rather than anything physically impossible to fix. There's some serious pro-life shit going on with Ezri Dax under the hood.

 

[Distorted Humor]

It is very clear to anyone who have watched any series completely that Ferengi, Klingons, Bajorans, etc are not Federations citizens

It's very obvious that Worf (a Klingon) is a Federation citizen, probably a United Earth citizen as well.

In the episode "Dax" is it stated clearly that other political groups have extradition treaties signed with the federation dealing with Trills (And thus, Trill government is with the federation). Also Worf, Nog, and others are noted as being exceptional cases. We see a large number of Trills and its does not even phase anyone to say "Wow, a Trill"

 

[T'Girl]

In the episode "Dax" is it stated clearly that other political groups have extradition treaties signed with the federation dealing with Trills (And thus, Trill government is with the federation).

That not exactly what the episode sighted says. There is a extradition treaty between Klaesrtron Four and the Federation yes, however the treaty in no way specifically deals with or mentions Trills.

Using a modern example, if a Frenchman commits a crime in Britain and flees to America, Britain can invoke it's extradition treaty with America to have the Frenchman sent to Britain. The treaty between America and Britain states than the individual to be extradited doesn't have to be either a American citizen or British subject. It isn't necessary for France to somehow be part of America. The alleged criminal could be from Pango Pango, irrelevant, he could be extradited.

Simply because a individual physically present in the Federation's jurisdiction can be extradited to a foreign state, doesn't make that individual's home world a Federation member.

And thus, Trill government is with the federation

It's actually possible, even likely, that the Trill system is surrounded by other inhabited systems, some of which are Federation members, this also doesn't make Trill a Federation member.

 

[Distorted Humor]

Well I still stand by that while there is no official line of "trills, members of the federation" to argue that there are thousands of trills in starfleet, long time state department corps members, integrated in masse into the scientific programs of the federation, you have to make a long convoluted argument that they are NOT members. I have yet to see a logical argument that they are NOT members of the federation, when they are implied throughout DS9 that they are full members.

Just my .02 cents.

 

[Timo]

But you don't see any of them at the highest levels of Federation operations, i.e.-Government, Science, etc, that is the difference.

Actually, you do. You get the highly influential ambassador K'Ehleyr, the insider scientist J'Dan, the trusted Starfleet hero Worf. Klingons are every bit as active inside the UFP as Trills are, not as favored foreigners, but as citizens of foreign origin.

For those who do not think Trills are members, why does other political groups have treaties with the federation dealing with the Trills involving extradition ("Dax")

Jadzia Dax may well be a UFP citizen (or two). Worf certainly is. Still doesn't mean their originating species or originating cultures would be UFP members. And remember how hard it was for Klingons to get Worf extradited from UFP custody?

..you have to make a long convoluted argument that they are NOT members.

Hardly. Their defining factor in both TNG and DS9 is that they are disgusting parasites whose true nature is secret from most UFP operatives. Trying to claim that they are UFP members is an uphill battle involving extensive government-level cover-ups, and "Equilibrium" already showed how difficult it was to have such a cover-up running even within the Trill society, let alone with some well-meaning but busybody UFP doctors.

The Trill just plain don't fit inside the UFP, except for that tiny little corner dedicated to misfits, rebels, outcasts and traitors that the spinoff show ST: DS9 deals with.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

For whatever it's worth, the DS9 Relaunch novels have very firmly established that Trill is a Federation Member State, most explicitly in Mission: Gamma, Book III--Cathedral and Trill: Unjoined, both by Michael A. Martin and Andy Mangels. The novel Articles of the Federation by Keith R.A. DeCandido further establishes that a Trill female named Madza Bral had been elected Federation President circa 2250, the first Federation President from a Member other than the five founding Members (Earth, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, and Alpha Centauri).

Excelsior: Forged in Fire, also by Martin and Mangels, further establishes that the bumpy-headed Trill seen in TNG's "The Host" are actually a variant of the humanoid Trill species who had been affected by exposure to the same Augment virus that created the smooth-headed Klingons (as established in ENT).

 

[Tuvoks_partner]

Well I still stand by that while there is no official line of "trills, members of the federation" to argue that there are thousands of trills in starfleet, long time state department corps members, integrated in masse into the scientific programs of the federation, you have to make a long convoluted argument that they are NOT members. I have yet to see a logical argument that they are NOT members of the federation, when they are implied throughout DS9 that they are full members.

Just my .02 cents.

I agree. Worf was rescued and adopted by humans, making him a Federation citizen, thus allowing him to freely serve in Starfleet. Again, I can see how the Federation would let a member of another government (Trill-Curzon Dax) negotiate their peace treaty (Khitomer Accords) with their most lethal enemy at the time (The Klingons). All signs points to Trill being federation members.

 

[Tuvoks_partner]

But you don't see any of them at the highest levels of Federation operations, i.e.-Government, Science, etc, that is the difference.

Actually, you do. You get the highly influential ambassador K'Ehleyr, the insider scientist J'Dan, the trusted Starfleet hero Worf. Klingons are every bit as active inside the UFP as Trills are, not as favored foreigners, but as citizens of foreign origin.

For those who do not think Trills are members, why does other political groups have treaties with the federation dealing with the Trills involving extradition ("Dax")

Jadzia Dax may well be a UFP citizen (or two). Worf certainly is. Still doesn't mean their originating species or originating cultures would be UFP members. And remember how hard it was for Klingons to get Worf extradited from UFP custody?

..you have to make a long convoluted argument that they are NOT members.

Hardly. Their defining factor in both TNG and DS9 is that they are disgusting parasites whose true nature is secret from most UFP operatives. Trying to claim that they are UFP members is an uphill battle involving extensive government-level cover-ups, and "Equilibrium" already showed how difficult it was to have such a cover-up running even within the Trill society, let alone with some well-meaning but busybody UFP doctors.

The Trill just plain don't fit inside the UFP, except for that tiny little corner dedicated to misfits, rebels, outcasts and traitors that the spinoff show ST: DS9 deals with.

Timo Saloniemi

K'Ehleyr was half human and half Klingon, most likely a Federation citizen; that was never made clear. Worf was adopted by humans, making him a Federation citizen.

 

[T'Girl]

If K'Ehleyr's Human parent was a Federation citizen (not an automatic thing) then K'Ehleyr should be a Federation citizen from birth. If both of her parents (Human and Klingon) were citizens, and she was born on a Federation world that would seal the deal.

On the other hand, if her human parent emigrated out of the Fedration, say to the Klingon Empire, then K'Ehleyr's status becomes unclear. Perhaps she is just a Federation diplomatic hired gun.

 

[Kirby]

I personally don't see the U.S. letting, lets say, a Canadian Negotiate a peace treaty with one of our most lethal enemies...

And for good reason: "Let's settle it through hockey, eh?"
Although the U.S. would dominate the Taliban in a best of seven series.

I agree with the poster that said they should be called something other than Trill. They took the time to change the makeup and re-shoot the scenes that were already done. It would be easy to change the script, and it's not like the Trill had a ton of backstory that was woven into the show already.

 

[Timo]

But the very idea in "The Host" was that the exterior didn't matter, or shouldn't have mattered, and the real person was inside. Having the Trill look different in DS9 should have been a non-issue, then. (They ought to have given us a few other styles of Trill host, though, to reinforce the impression that only inner beauty mattered.)

K'Ehleyr was half human and half Klingon, most likely a Federation citizen; that was never made clear. Worf was adopted by humans, making him a Federation citizen.

Exactly. So by the same token, some Trills could be UFP citizens and contribute significantly to the UFP society even if Trill is not a UFP member, and the UFP knows very little about Trill or the Trill. The UFP didn't know much about Klingon anatomy or politics, either, when hiring K'Ehleyr and Worf.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tuvoks_partner]

I personally don't see the U.S. letting, lets say, a Canadian Negotiate a peace treaty with one of our most lethal enemies...

And for good reason: "Let's settle it through hockey, eh?"
Although the U.S. would dominate the Taliban in a best of seven series.

I agree with the poster that said they should be called something other than Trill. They took the time to change the makeup and re-shoot the scenes that were already done. It would be easy to change the script, and it's not like the Trill had a ton of backstory that was woven into the show already.

The didn't have a backstory, your right. I'm just now watching TNG, it's good so far, but I think with Curzon being a Federation Ambassador 80 years prior, the Federation would have surely have some knowledge about the Trill being a joined species. Odan, on TNG was a Federation Ambassador, How could they not know? It wasn't very well thought out writing to me