George R.R. Martin vs. Damon Lindelof

[coolghoul]

Martin's criticism of Lost's ending has nothing to do with the rigors of producing a television series. His criticism was regarding the finale's narrative flaws, and seeing as he's been working professionally as a writer in both the literary and television circles for almost forty years, I'd say he's more than qualified to comment.

Uh... Nobody needs to be working professionally as a writer in either literary or television circles to criticize a show - all they need to do is *WATCH THE SHOW*... While Lost's ending worked for some people, it's also true that it did NOT work for several other viewers.

However, I can't see in the Original Poster's post what exactly Lindelof said back. Anybody care to give a link?

 

[Professor Zoom]

Others have addressed the other points, but...

Yet he thinks it's a snap to produce a good TV episde every week. Unbelievable.

...I'd like to address this one.

Where did he say it was a snap? Strawman much?

He said the ending didn't work.

And let's be honest about Lost. They new it was ending. They had a couple of years to develop an ending--remember the days at the beginning when they said they had it all planned out?--plenty of time to move towards a surprising, yet satisfying ending.

They chose not to do that. Not because TV making is hard. That's a given. Even shows without the narrative challenges of Lost are hard to produce. But, honestly, I bet the story got away from them. Probably the moment they had a HUGE show on their hands....

That said, be honest in your criticisms of Martin. He never claimed making TV is a snap. He knows it's challenges. He knows the challenges of telling a complex story.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Yep as I stated in an earlier post, Martin was giving the same critique about the ending of the show that I've read many fans give on this board before. Nothing more. He wasn't personally insulting Damon. He didn't say he sucked as a writer. He stated that he thought the ending was basically a cop out and hoped that he himself didn't fuck up the ending of The Song of Ice and Fire. He himself was being cheeky at the end of his statement. I just feel like Damon took this to an unnecessary level despite his intentions. Joking or not and that's why it's silly and stupid.

 

[Dream]

I just feel like Damon took this to an unnecessary level despite his intentions. Joking or not and that's why it's silly and stupid.

If you look at his twitter posts, Damon didn't have a problem with Martin not liking the ending, but the phrase "Pulling a Lost". I can see how that annoyed him. Damon was probably joking though.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Yeah I read all of his tweets. My point though is that this entire thing is stupid even if it's intended to be "fun" on his part and yeah we fans seem to be taking it far to seriously.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

I'm a big fan of A Song of Ice and Fire and I loved the Lost finale, so no picking sides in the "feud" (whether serious or tongue in cheek) for me.

He's not beholden to anyone to finish the books on anyone's time but his own.

Some people have got really ugly in how they phrase their frustration at Martin's increasingly slow pace, and Gaiman's post is well-observed in that regard, but I do think something of a compact develops between an author and his readership, especially in the case of a series with an ongoing storyline, and delivering the books in a timely fashion is an aspect of that. Also, he's of course beholden to his publisher in that regard.

 

[AzureOwl]

This interview shows that it was definitively tongue in cheek. Lindelof comes off as a huge Martin fanboy.

As for Martin criticizing Lost, he basically said that he was a huge fan and watched the show religiously. That’s why he was disappointed by the finale.

As for the next book, Martin’s said it’ll come out on July 12th.

 

[Skellington]

This interview shows that it was definitively tongue in cheek. Lindelof comes off as a huge Martin fanboy.

I'm glad to hear it. I think that Lindelof is a fine writer. Would hate to think that he was a humourless douche or something.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I'm a big fan of A Song of Ice and Fire and I loved the Lost finale, so no picking sides in the "feud" (whether serious or tongue in cheek) for me.

He's not beholden to anyone to finish the books on anyone's time but his own.

Some people have got really ugly in how they phrase their frustration at Martin's increasingly slow pace, and Gaiman's post is well-observed in that regard, but I do think something of a compact develops between an author and his readership, especially in the case of a series with an ongoing storyline, and delivering the books in a timely fashion is an aspect of that. Also, he's of course beholden to his publisher in that regard.

In regards to the compact... Who created that though? The fans who are clamoring? Or the author who wants to create the best book possible?

Personally, any sort of compact is in the mind of the fan.

It seems to me that Martin wants to create a great product. And if it takes 10 years that's how long it will take. But that's the compact Martin has with his fans, he wants to create a good book, that's his promise. Not when it gets delivered.

As you say, delivery is between he and his publisher.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

In regards to the compact... Who created that though? The fans who are clamoring? Or the author who wants to create the best book possible?

Personally, any sort of compact is in the mind of the fan.

It seems to me that Martin wants to create a great product. And if it takes 10 years that's how long it will take. But that's the compact Martin has with his fans, he wants to create a good book, that's his promise. Not when it gets delivered.

The compact is mutual in my opinion, and it's something an author should have in his mind. The fans support the work and give the author financial rewards and the capacity to continue with the series and the author has a responsibility to the fans to strive to deliver the best work he's capable of and, in the case of a highly serialized ongoing storyline, to deliver his books in a reasonable timeframe, especially when he initially set up an expectation himself that the book would be delivered pretty quickly (as Martin did with A Dance with Dragons).

 

[Professor Zoom]

In regards to the compact... Who created that though? The fans who are clamoring? Or the author who wants to create the best book possible?

Personally, any sort of compact is in the mind of the fan.

It seems to me that Martin wants to create a great product. And if it takes 10 years that's how long it will take. But that's the compact Martin has with his fans, he wants to create a good book, that's his promise. Not when it gets delivered.

The compact is mutual in my opinion, and it's something an author should have in his mind. The fans support the work and give the author financial rewards and the capacity to continue with the series and the author has a responsibility to the fans to strive to deliver the best work he's capable of and, in the case of a highly serialized ongoing storyline, to deliver his books in a reasonable timeframe, especially when he initially set up an expectation himself that the book would be delivered pretty quickly (as Martin did with A Dance with Dragons).

But what is reasonable? Who determines that? Especially when the book isn't turning out as one would want? Should Martin have just gone forward and delivered what he thought wasn't very good? Wouldn't that have been just as destructive to the "compact"? Art doesn't always work on a time table.

And if it IS mutual, then it should go both ways. If the compact is more than just buying the books--we're talking not about the book, but about when the book arrives and the quality, what are the fans giving him? Shouldn't they give him patience? Or is it just a one way street?

I would argue there's a dialogue between fans and author, but there is no compact. There's no agreement. He's the author of the books and he'll get things done as he can, but he's not beholden to some fans time table. Just as the fan isn't beholden to continue buying the books. The fan and the author like the world of the books and want to see it continue, but it's only up to one person....

 

[startrekwatcher]

My issue with LOST was in the end it never really added up to a whole story. It kept introducing mysteries and threads that the writers every year promised would be resolved in time. Well time ran out and they were nothing more than plot points, dangling threads, unanswered questions and in some cases they existed simply to be an immediate WTF moment with no other purpose.

If I had known this and weren't misled by the writers' constant promises of having learned about messed up unsatisfying mythologies from Twin Peaks and X-Files then I wouldn't have been so disappointed.

Honestly I think time and again that these complicated serialized mythology shows don't really work--V, Flash Forward, Invasion, Surface, The Nine, The Event, Kidnapped, Heroes, BSG, Persons Unknown, Harpers Island, Happy Town etc.

LOST did well in terms of season long chapters at times like Season 4 but as a whole it didn't work. BSG in the end botched and pretty much discarded its mythology.

I'm not against serialized tv but I think complicated mythology heavy shows don't seem to be able to be done well. I think sticking to season long arcs with their own self contained plots seem to be the way to go. Heroes season one was very satisfying and managed to answer all the questions raised by the end of the year rather than dragging it out and never answering them which seemed to be what happened with LOST where the writers felt they could worry about answering things down the road.

Same for Enterprise's Xindi arc--it had a season long story where it was all wrapped up and all the mysteries resolved by the season finale.

Also I think shows like LOST can have too large a cast and you really can't become invested in them with the time needed the way a more traditional drama would do.

LOST and all the shows they ushered were an interesting experiment but ultimately a failed one--on a lot of these shows the mythology became an albatross and viewed as such by the writers. So I agree with Martin about LOST ultimately being a big unsatisfying mess--their reach exceeded their grasp. If you don't want to deal with mythology don't make it a part of your show--serialized dramas have told season long stories without an overly-complicated mythology. But if you do a mythology you have an obligation to provide satisfying closure and not just come up with half-assed "answers".

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

But what is reasonable? Who determines that? Especially when the book isn't turning out as one would want? Should Martin have just gone forward and delivered what he thought wasn't very good? Wouldn't that have been just as destructive to the "compact"? Art doesn't always work on a time table.

Sure, there are delays when writer's block hits or when things have to be rewritten and restructured. How long it takes to get through that depends on a writer's tenacity in dealing with writer's block and in how much time he puts into the work. An author should strive to deliver books in a series in a timely manner, for the sake of his readers and his publisher alike. That one can say as a matter of principle. Sometimes that's just outright impossible without sacrificing quality. Whether the long delay in this case was unavoidable or not is impossible to say from the outside, but as a matter of principle I disagree with the notion that a writer isn't beholden to anyone in terms of when he delivers a book. He has a publisher to whom he is quite literally beholden to as a matter of contract and he has a readership whose enthusiasm and support for his work he should bear in mind.

And if it IS mutual, then it should go both ways. If the compact is more than just buying the books--we're talking not about the book, but about when the book arrives and the quality, what are the fans giving him? Shouldn't they give him patience? Or is it just a one way street?

I said it's mutual, so therefore it's not a one-way street. Patience and understanding is part of what fans should accord the author, but the extent of that is going to be framed by the expectations set by the author himself.

I would argue there's a dialogue between fans and author, but there is no compact. There's no agreement. He's the author of the books and he'll get things done as he can, but he's not beholden to some fans time table. Just as the fan isn't beholden to continue buying the books. The fan and the author like the world of the books and want to see it continue, but it's only up to one person....

Well, I'm using the term "compact" very loosely, which is why I initially said "something of a compact".

 

[Hyperspace05]

Exactly what is a "compact"? It's a new term for me... Did you mean to write "contract"? As in an implied writer-reader contract?

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

Lindelof is a huge huge geek. There's no doubt he's a fan of Martin's and the books.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Exactly what is a "compact"? It's a new term for me... Did you mean to write "contract"? As in an implied writer-reader contract?

A compact in this context can mean a pact, agreement or treaty.

 

[Skywalker]

Some people have got really ugly in how they phrase their frustration at Martin's increasingly slow pace, and Gaiman's post is well-observed in that regard, but I do think something of a compact develops between an author and his readership, especially in the case of a series with an ongoing storyline, and delivering the books in a timely fashion is an aspect of that. Also, he's of course beholden to his publisher in that regard.

I don't really buy that. Sure, fans hope to see a new book in a timely fashion, and I'm sure most writers, should they feel inclined to do so, want to get their next book to them in an equally timely manner, but once a reader purchases that writer's book, there's no more 'compact' between them. The reader has already paid for the writer's work.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

I don't really buy that. Sure, fans hope to see a new book in a timely fashion, and I'm sure most writers, should they feel inclined to do so, want to get their next book to them in an equally timely manner, but once a reader purchases that writer's book, there's no more 'compact' between them. The reader has already paid for the writer's work.

When you're talking about an ongoing series, especially one with an intensely engaged fan base, I think the connection between writer and readership goes deeper than simply a one-off customer buying a single book. The reader is buying one part of the story in the context of an implied promise, sales and the continued good health of the author willing, that there will eventually be a complete story.

 

[Professor Zoom]

But what is reasonable? Who determines that? Especially when the book isn't turning out as one would want? Should Martin have just gone forward and delivered what he thought wasn't very good? Wouldn't that have been just as destructive to the "compact"? Art doesn't always work on a time table.

Sure, there are delays when writer's block hits or when things have to be rewritten and restructured. How long it takes to get through that depends on a writer's tenacity in dealing with writer's block and in how much time he puts into the work.

Do fans think Martin WASN'T working as hard as he could? And sometimes it's not just sitting at your desk staring at a piece of paper, sometimes it is going and doing something else for a bit.

Hopefully people realize Martin WAS working as fast as he could. But, I don't think people realize you can't always control the pace of a creative process. You can't. Not if you have high expectations of quality.

An author should strive to deliver books in a series in a timely manner, for the sake of his readers and his publisher alike.

Again, do fans think he wasn't? He was trying to deliver a quality product. He will get it done as fast as it takes. It's just taking longer than others, who aren't writing the book, think it should.

That one can say as a matter of principle. Sometimes that's just outright impossible without sacrificing quality. Whether the long delay in this case was unavoidable or not is impossible to say from the outside, but as a matter of principle I disagree with the notion that a writer isn't beholden to anyone in terms of when he delivers a book. He has a publisher to whom he is quite literally beholden to as a matter of contract and he has a readership whose enthusiasm and support for his work he should bear in mind.

I guess to me, I would rather have a QUALITY book than a book out like clockwork. I have a feeling Martin feels more beholden to the audience to give them something of quality rather than a date on the calendar.

And his contract with the publisher might not HAVE a delivery date.

And I'm sure he DOES have the enthusiasm for the readership in mind. That might be why he would rather deliver quality than just deliver. A rabid fan base could just as easily TURN on you if your book isn't as good as your last, or it doesn't fulfill expectations.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

And his contract with the publisher might not HAVE a delivery date.

Whether it had a precise delivery date I don't know, but Martin has said his editors and publishers have been very unhappy about the delays.

I give Martin the benefit of the doubt that he's been working as hard as possible to get the book finished, although I have no way of knowing if that's the case or not.

What I've been speaking to is more a question of whether the author of a series has a responsibility to his readership to strive for both quality and timeliness. I believe he (or she) does. If an author gets stuck in the creative process and a book is delayed because of it and can't be finished any sooner without the quality suffering then that author isn't abrogating their responsibility in that regard. If the author of a series has grown rich from it and is extremely tardy with the next book because he's spending his days playing Xbox then he is abrogating his responsibilities to his publisher and readers alike.

Hopefully Martin falls into the former category. I trust he does. Whatever the case, let's hope things go more smoothly with the final two books in the series, for everyone's sake.