Ahh.... probably get it in a month then. Nice cover. Though I keep swearing I'll stop buying them as the content can be pretty sub standard.
What was wrong with "These are the Voyages"
- Thread starter You_Will_Fail
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What do "needs of the many" have to do with Trip's death? It's not like he was saving the Federation or anything... Or Earth, or even the ship, for that matter. Hell, I don't think that even Archer was in any serous danger. His "sacrifice" was completely unnecessary.
As I said, whether you, or I, or anyone else like how it happened is irrelevant. It's pretty clear that the intent was for him to give his life to save Archers. And considering how many times someone who was from the future, or influenced by someone from the future implied that Archer was important for the Federation to even begin, I could easily see how someone that was his closest friend could be over protective.
I mean come on, it wasn't "neccesary" for Spock to walk into that chamber full of radiation, that's what EV suites are for. Or a hypo shot. Or any number of ways it's been shown they can protect themselves from that kind of thing.
Kirk didn't "need" to die if Picard had at least had the common sense to come out of the nexus with some weapons. Or gone back to the enterprise before arriving at Veridian III. (Although I do think when and where they come out is tied to when and where the Nexus is, something that isn't really discussed in the movie.)
And no, I'm not trying to cheapen what they did. I'm simply trying to point out that they could have been as equally "unnecessary."
I mean come on, it wasn't "neccesary" for Spock to walk into that chamber full of radiation, that's what EV suites are for. Or a hypo shot. Or any number of ways it's been shown they can protect themselves from that kind of thing.
Kirk didn't "need" to die if Picard had at least had the common sense to come out of the nexus with some weapons. Or gone back to the enterprise before arriving at Veridian III. (Although I do think when and where they come out is tied to when and where the Nexus is, something that isn't really discussed in the movie.)
And no, I'm not trying to cheapen what they did. I'm simply trying to point out that they could have been as equally "unnecessary."
Spock's death may have not been a necessity or some great act of heroism, but it was a beautiful, iconic Trek moment.
Kirk's death sucked ass, but the finishing touch (Picard putting his Starfleet badge on his grave) was nice. This isn't really important, though, because he did die while trying to save a planet full of innocent people. Also, history actually remembers him sacrificing himself saving Enterprise B.
Trip, however, pulled a plug on himself for no apparent reason. He went through a lot of shit during the Xindi mission, and during that Romulan thing, AND during the Terra Prime crisis. He was up against REAL bad guys and REAL threats, but he chooses to go all martyr against some petty thugs? Sheeeeeet.
Kirk's death sucked ass, but the finishing touch (Picard putting his Starfleet badge on his grave) was nice. This isn't really important, though, because he did die while trying to save a planet full of innocent people. Also, history actually remembers him sacrificing himself saving Enterprise B.
Trip, however, pulled a plug on himself for no apparent reason. He went through a lot of shit during the Xindi mission, and during that Romulan thing, AND during the Terra Prime crisis. He was up against REAL bad guys and REAL threats, but he chooses to go all martyr against some petty thugs? Sheeeeeet.
TRUTH.
As I said, this is looking at it without personal opinion and simply looking at the intent, which was to have Trip sacrifice himself to save Archers life. And by that standard it would qualify for a great sacrifice as is said on the cover.
Now, that being said, I can also understand why people don't like how it went down. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I'd like to make it clear I'm not trying to belittle that. I'm simply looking at it from the point of view of what seems to be the writers intent.
Now one way they could have done it a little better, since as you said they were petty thugs, was have it be Romulans. We know there is a war at some point between Enterprise and TOS between Starfleet and the RSE. And it would only seem to make sense in my eyes that the Romulans would be against the idea of a bunch of their neighbors joining forces. Somewhere close to the last scene could be Archer commenting to T'Pol before that big speech about how he's excited about the peace that this treaty will bring, but wonders how long it will last with the recent actions by the Romulans.
Absolutely, though I can't help wondering... Could it be that the real motive for his death was "damn, Shat is getting really old and fat... Lets pull the plug on Kirk before he turns him into some grotesque caricature"
Absolutely, though I can't help wondering... Could it be that the real motive for his death was "damn, Shat is getting really old and fat... Lets pull the plug on Kirk before he turns him into some grotesque caricature"
Shouldn't they have offed Riker by that point then? If I remember right, he had quite a bit of a gut by the time they got to Generations.
He looked fine in Generations, IMO. He even looked OK in Nemesis, for a guy his age and all...
On the other hand, TATV Riker was an abomination, not because Frakes got fat and old, but because, you know, he tried to pass as his 1994 self.
I think thats more or less a consensus around here.
Riker should have been on Titan, reading Archers memoirs or something (that way we would have had real ENT characters, not just some lifeless holograms).
Also, actually seeing Titan on screen would have been pretty sweet.
I'd be very surprised if the consensus was what ENT really needed in its finale, was TNG characters.
No offence, I can see where you're going... no problems with Frakes and Sirtis' appearances if they're on the Titan, instead of trying to wind back the clock to 1993.
The problem was Rick Berman trying to recapture the glory days with "These are the Voyages...", trying to loop ENT back to TNG, completing his era of televised Star Trek. Maybe it's my OCD, but if the show needed to reach out at all (and I'm not sure it did) it was to TOS. One look at how well received "In a Mirror, Darkly" was confirms this.
I don't think he would have rated the captain's chair on the Titan unless he had acquired the ability to make the tough calls without a Trip
to the holodeck.
Well, as I've said before, while I personally see it as an adequate episode, I don't think it works as a finale. Terra Nova was a much better candidate for that IMHO.
I don't know about that. I think it's perfectly reasonable for someone to look back on the exploits of others when making their decisions. Like a "What Would Archer Do" type of thing. We all have heroes we look up to after all. I haven't read any of the titan books yet, but if I'm understanding what I've been told they are pretty far out in uncharted territory. The NX-01 wasn't as far out, but as far as the humans were concerned it was also uncharted. I think a Titan/Ent crossover would have been much more fitting.I don't think he would have rated the captain's chair on the Titan unless he had acquired the ability to make the tough calls without a Trip
I didn't mean to say that the consensus was that Riker and Troi should have been in the finale. I meant, the general consensus is that Titan framing would have been a much better choice than TNG.
Completely agree, a missed opportunity. Tie ENT in some way to TOS in the finale = WIN. Tie ENT to TNG in the finale = Berman Wanking.
never had a problem with Riker per se (actually quite like Frakes, if not his trek character) so wouldn't have minded seeing that.
I wouldn't have had a problem with Riker on the Titan either. After all, we saw Picard seeking solace and advice in Shakespeare, like in The Defector. Why couldn't we see Riker do something similar once he was a captain?
My issues, let me show you them:
- The "Did you find him attractive?" bait-and-switch, where for a second it looks like Riker asking Reed about Tucker, but it turns out the scene's changed and he's talking to Hoshi. In a series that has consistently and deliberately failed to deliver a canon gay character for years, that's not cute, it's a crappy, kick-in-the-teeth thing to do - especially given it's Reed, who's been the subject of fan-speculation on that issue before. I wouldn't even mind what Reed had said in return, if he'd even said, "No, because I'm straight", if they'd actually just let the question stand and demonstrated there's nothing tee-hee or icky or coy about asking a man if he likes another man in the 24th century. No cool points.
- Trip is southern, but he's not a dumb hick. There's no reason on earth why he wouldn't have finished college, or at least gone back to finish once he chose his career path. He's a smart, committed, professional man, as we've seen time and time again throughout the series. It felt like B&B were buying into a stereotype of the character rather than the character himself, and a stereotype based on his early season 1 appearances at that.
- Though I didn't want the character to die, I could have bought the death if it had been at all well-executed, but it wasn't. None of the people we've seen Trip grow close to over four years even seemed to care. Sim got a better send off than the real Trip, for crying out loud. When the nine-day-old clone gets the full works but the real guy doesn't, you have a problem there.
- The Trip/T'Pol thing. I'll come clean and say I never liked the pairing, I thought their whole storyline was contrived, but even I could see it was rubbish and cheap to throw that all out the window for no real reason after the emotional climax of Terra Prime. The characters seemed to have gone backwards.
- The holosuite. A cheap trick, but again I could have gone with it if it had been well done, but it wasn't. I've always found something about the holosuite slightly unsettling, and seeing characters I know and love recreated in it kind of brought home why - it's a bit reducing to recreating real people to play with, and it felt reducing to the characters here. They could have at least taken the opportunity for every character to have a bit of their own closure, but instead they just talked about Trip and his hot bod, which, granted I understand why Riker wants to focus on that, but it's no kind of send off for the characters themselves.
- The speech that wasn't. You know, they could have actually made that work, and it could have been quite clever, and funny even, but because nothing about this episode was clever, it just came over as "Yeah, we didn't know what to put in the speech." Couldn't even be bothered to watch The Lion King for inspiration. No cool points.
Also agree the whole credibility of the episode is called into question by it taking place in a holosuite, because how could they possibly have access to all that accurate information? Although this:
Definitely happened
I find myself wishing desperately they'd used that and done something like that episode of the X-files where Mulder's eating all the pie, where lots of little details change and are wrong deliberately, to illustrate the unreliability of witness statements. Though honestly I would even have settled for some baby gazelles.
- The "Did you find him attractive?" bait-and-switch, where for a second it looks like Riker asking Reed about Tucker, but it turns out the scene's changed and he's talking to Hoshi. In a series that has consistently and deliberately failed to deliver a canon gay character for years, that's not cute, it's a crappy, kick-in-the-teeth thing to do - especially given it's Reed, who's been the subject of fan-speculation on that issue before. I wouldn't even mind what Reed had said in return, if he'd even said, "No, because I'm straight", if they'd actually just let the question stand and demonstrated there's nothing tee-hee or icky or coy about asking a man if he likes another man in the 24th century. No cool points.
- Trip is southern, but he's not a dumb hick. There's no reason on earth why he wouldn't have finished college, or at least gone back to finish once he chose his career path. He's a smart, committed, professional man, as we've seen time and time again throughout the series. It felt like B&B were buying into a stereotype of the character rather than the character himself, and a stereotype based on his early season 1 appearances at that.
- Though I didn't want the character to die, I could have bought the death if it had been at all well-executed, but it wasn't. None of the people we've seen Trip grow close to over four years even seemed to care. Sim got a better send off than the real Trip, for crying out loud. When the nine-day-old clone gets the full works but the real guy doesn't, you have a problem there.
- The Trip/T'Pol thing. I'll come clean and say I never liked the pairing, I thought their whole storyline was contrived, but even I could see it was rubbish and cheap to throw that all out the window for no real reason after the emotional climax of Terra Prime. The characters seemed to have gone backwards.
- The holosuite. A cheap trick, but again I could have gone with it if it had been well done, but it wasn't. I've always found something about the holosuite slightly unsettling, and seeing characters I know and love recreated in it kind of brought home why - it's a bit reducing to recreating real people to play with, and it felt reducing to the characters here. They could have at least taken the opportunity for every character to have a bit of their own closure, but instead they just talked about Trip and his hot bod, which, granted I understand why Riker wants to focus on that, but it's no kind of send off for the characters themselves.
- The speech that wasn't. You know, they could have actually made that work, and it could have been quite clever, and funny even, but because nothing about this episode was clever, it just came over as "Yeah, we didn't know what to put in the speech." Couldn't even be bothered to watch The Lion King for inspiration. No cool points.
Also agree the whole credibility of the episode is called into question by it taking place in a holosuite, because how could they possibly have access to all that accurate information? Although this:
Who knows, maybe it was Malcolm who spilled everything about Trip and T'Pol to some sexy journalist after a beer or two.
Definitely happened
I find myself wishing desperately they'd used that and done something like that episode of the X-files where Mulder's eating all the pie, where lots of little details change and are wrong deliberately, to illustrate the unreliability of witness statements. Though honestly I would even have settled for some baby gazelles.
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