Jeri slams Chakotay/7

[froot]

The weirdest thing is that KM is the one who usually praises C/7 the most, LOL.

Yes, I´ve also been wondering about Kate praising C/7 so much (although I`ve to agree).
She said:"Sexy meets sexy!"

Thank for the link to Jery`s interview.
I think, this part is really interesting.

It's not that I didn't buy it ... My problem with that relationship was that it came out of the blue. They had started the set-up of the relationship a few episodes earlier, in the episode ("Human Error") where Seven was experimenting with her humanity on the holodeck. And so she sort of fell in love with Chakotay there. They said something like her could never have these sorts of relationships because she would die, or whatever. The next episode that we shot after that ("Natural Law"), Seven and Chakotay were stranded on some planet together. We specifically asked the producers - Robert and I - "Now, are we going to play this? Is this going to go somewhere? Because, obviously, we'd need to carry something over from ... " And they said, "No, no, no, no! Absolutely not. Don't play any of that. Nothing's going to happen."

What the hell happend to the writers?????
4!!!! episodes before the end of the series with C/7 they told RB and Jery that Nothing's going to happen.
I can`t believe it.
Robert Beltran is right about the writers.

What happened is that Braga was really pushing for Seven to sacrifice herself at the end of the series when she realized she could never be emotionally the same as everyone else. He wanted her to be a tragic character, but the idea got poo-poohed, which is too bad. It would have been interesting, IMO. I think I might have been okay with C/7 in this context - we got a passing reference in "Endgame" to what Seven's death did to the ol' J/C/7 love triangle, but that was about it.

Besides what happened in "Human Error," you can see this idea peek through in the references to her death in "Endgame" and earlier in the season in "Imperfection," which was where he wanted the whole thing to start.

And thanks for the info, teya. I guess you folks are a little kinder than the rest of us! Congrats on winning.

 

[teya]

The weirdest thing is that KM is the one who usually praises C/7 the most, LOL.

Yes, I´ve also been wondering about Kate praising C/7 so much (although I`ve to agree).
She said:"Sexy meets sexy!"

Thank for the link to Jery`s interview.
I think, this part is really interesting.

It's not that I didn't buy it ... My problem with that relationship was that it came out of the blue. They had started the set-up of the relationship a few episodes earlier, in the episode ("Human Error") where Seven was experimenting with her humanity on the holodeck. And so she sort of fell in love with Chakotay there. They said something like her could never have these sorts of relationships because she would die, or whatever. The next episode that we shot after that ("Natural Law"), Seven and Chakotay were stranded on some planet together. We specifically asked the producers - Robert and I - "Now, are we going to play this? Is this going to go somewhere? Because, obviously, we'd need to carry something over from ... " And they said, "No, no, no, no! Absolutely not. Don't play any of that. Nothing's going to happen."

What the hell happend to the writers?????
4!!!! episodes before the end of the series with C/7 they told RB and Jery that Nothing's going to happen.
I can`t believe it.
Robert Beltran is right about the writers.

What happened is that Braga was really pushing for Seven to sacrifice herself at the end of the series when she realized she could never be emotionally the same as everyone else. He wanted her to be a tragic character, but the idea got poo-poohed, which is too bad. It would have been interesting, IMO. I think I might have been okay with C/7 in this context - we got a passing reference in "Endgame" to what Seven's death did to the ol' J/C/7 love triangle, but that was about it.

Besides what happened in "Human Error," you can see this idea peek through in the references to her death in "Endgame" and earlier in the season in "Imperfection," which was where he wanted the whole thing to start.

And thanks for the info, teya. I guess you folks are a little kinder than the rest of us! Congrats on winning.

Thanks!

Had they killed Seven off in some glorious sacrificing-herself-for-the-crew story, I would have destroyed my TV and never watched Star Trek again. That would be saying that the only redemption for Seven would be to die--that she can't atone for her past and that being her unique self isn't viable.


Sometimes what writers think would be a terrific story deserves a little more thought. I recently watched the show "Thirtysomething" some 20 years after it aired. There was a plotline where one of the characters had ovarian cancer. In the commentary, the producers say that they'd planned to kill her off after she'd gone through all the treatment. But the feedback from the fans was so positive--she was giving hope to a lot of women going through chemo. So, they decided to let Nancy live, and killed another character off in an auto accident.


Star Trek has always been about hope. Killing off Seven would be the antithesis of that.

 

[vas2009]

C/7 was rushed. Chak spent the whole series disliking and not trusting Seven then all of a sudden she's licking his finger... or was that a holoChak? No matter it was bogus there was no chemistry. Perhaps there could have been, but it would have needed a while to grow, like Riker and Troi no chem at first but eventually.... I could see it but IMO and I think I still would have felt the same about C/7.

Seven and Chak were VERY different, not the good different either.

I personally like J/C... J/7... J/(anyone, except Neelix, Harry, the Bolian ect)
I REALLY don't think Chakotay was good enough for my queen, however they did get along very well (when they were getting along) and they had great chemistry. J/C is probably the only reason I like Chak at all. What I hate about J/C fic is when J/C fic writters turn Janeway into a woosy (sp?) little girl and Chak is some macho hero...

 

[HoneyBLilly]

I like Macho Chak. You only got to see him in the series once or twice. Most notably in Manuevers. He'd be macho for a few seconds and then Janeway would enter and his balls would shrink again.

 

[exodus]

Had they killed Seven off in some glorious sacrificing-herself-for-the-crew story, I would have destroyed my TV and never watched Star Trek again.

Hush yo fuss, girl.
Now you're starting to sound like someone else.

 

[lurok]

I never understood killing off Chakotay but letting Seven survive to return to Earth (which I imagine would have been hellish, if not difficult). Dramatically might have made more sense to kill Seven, or both, and Janeway could equally have mourned either or both.

 

[teya]

Had they killed Seven off in some glorious sacrificing-herself-for-the-crew story, I would have destroyed my TV and never watched Star Trek again.

Hush yo fuss, girl.
Now you're starting to sound like someone else.

Thought I'd wake you up!


Actually the only times my TV came close to being destroyed because of Star Trek was my sweetie's reaction to TNG's "Up the Long Ladder," and Voyagers "Spirit Folk."

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Thanks!

Had they killed Seven off in some glorious sacrificing-herself-for-the-crew story, I would have destroyed my TV and never watched Star Trek again. That would be saying that the only redemption for Seven would be to die--that she can't atone for her past and that being her unique self isn't viable.

I absolutely love 7, she is one of the greatest characters ever in Trek. Making her die for a sacrifice would be a complete waste and really kind of tacky IMHO. The only thing it would add is an extra element of tragedy about the Borg but it's not like they need more tragedy in their story line.

Sometimes what writers think would be a terrific story deserves a little more thought. I recently watched the show "Thirtysomething" some 20 years after it aired. There was a plotline where one of the characters had ovarian cancer. In the commentary, the producers say that they'd planned to kill her off after she'd gone through all the treatment. But the feedback from the fans was so positive--she was giving hope to a lot of women going through chemo. So, they decided to let Nancy live, and killed another character off in an auto accident.

It's funny you mention that as just the other day I was remembering that ginger haired dude who was killed riding his bike in that show, I think his friend got the phone call about it while in the hospital waiting around near the vending machines, in the hospital for the ovarian cancer character. Or maybe I'm mixing that part up with Seinfeld. I haven't seen that show in over 20 years.

Star Trek has always been about hope. Killing off Seven would be the antithesis of that.

It would fit Treklit's direction well, the Federation is utterly effed by the Borg.

She does represent redemption, a very difficult and ongoing redemption which I think has more meaning being worked out in life than in a quick sacrifice. Ransome sacrificed himself as a form of redemption, that worked.. but for 7 to reclaim her humanity by dying is quite defeatist.

 

[froot]

Maybe I just really wanted someone to die at the end.

Admiral Janeway doesn't count.

 

[teya]

Thanks!

Had they killed Seven off in some glorious sacrificing-herself-for-the-crew story, I would have destroyed my TV and never watched Star Trek again. That would be saying that the only redemption for Seven would be to die--that she can't atone for her past and that being her unique self isn't viable.

I absolutely love 7, she is one of the greatest characters ever in Trek. Making her die for a sacrifice would be a complete waste and really kind of tacky IMHO. The only thing it would add is an extra element of tragedy about the Borg but it's not like they need more tragedy in their story line.

Sometimes what writers think would be a terrific story deserves a little more thought. I recently watched the show "Thirtysomething" some 20 years after it aired. There was a plotline where one of the characters had ovarian cancer. In the commentary, the producers say that they'd planned to kill her off after she'd gone through all the treatment. But the feedback from the fans was so positive--she was giving hope to a lot of women going through chemo. So, they decided to let Nancy live, and killed another character off in an auto accident.

It's funny you mention that as just the other day I was remembering that ginger haired dude who was killed riding his bike in that show, I think his friend got the phone call about it while in the hospital waiting around near the vending machines, in the hospital for the ovarian cancer character. Or maybe I'm mixing that part up with Seinfeld. I haven't seen that show in over 20 years.

Star Trek has always been about hope. Killing off Seven would be the antithesis of that.

It would fit Treklit's direction well, the Federation is utterly effed by the Borg.

She does represent redemption, a very difficult and ongoing redemption which I think has more meaning being worked out in life than in a quick sacrifice. Ransome sacrificed himself as a form of redemption, that worked.. but for 7 to reclaim her humanity by dying is quite defeatist.

Agree with everything you said.


Yep, you're remembering that right, except Gary wasnt' on a bike, he was driving. But that's still pretty good after 20 years! It's funny though, I hadn't seen the show in 20 years, but when I saw it on DVD I was amazed at how much I remembered and how clearly. It really was incredibly well-written and beautifully filmed.

 

[AuntKate]

What I hate about J/C fic is when J/C fic writters turn Janeway into a woosy (sp?) little girl and Chak is some macho hero...

That's what I hate about most C/7 fanfic!

Oh, and Seven didn't need to die in the sacrifice. She could have "rejoined" the Borg--what a cool setup for follow-up fanfiction!

 

[lurok]

Oh, and Seven didn't need to die in the sacrifice. She could have "rejoined" the Borg--what a cool setup for follow-up fanfiction!

But only if she was the Voyager Seven and not re-assimilated, but rather downloads experiences... That would have given collective food for thought

 

[teya]

What I hate about J/C fic is when J/C fic writters turn Janeway into a woosy (sp?) little girl and Chak is some macho hero...

That's what I hate about most C/7 fanfic!

Oh, and Seven didn't need to die in the sacrifice. She could have "rejoined" the Borg--what a cool setup for follow-up fanfiction!

Hate that idea, too.


It's really funny that the ones who wanted Seven to die or rejoin the Collective are those who are most upset that they killed Janeway off Trek Lit. It's different when it's your favorite, isn't it?

 

[AuntKate]

Oh, and Seven didn't need to die in the sacrifice. She could have "rejoined" the Borg--what a cool setup for follow-up fanfiction!

But only if she was the Voyager Seven and not re-assimilated, but rather downloads experiences... That would have given collective food for thought

Well, she wouldn't have been dead, so they could have mounted a determined effort to rescue her. I can't imagine that Janeway would leave her behind (that is, after all, one of her rules). It would have been in character, as Seven has been tempted to do something like this before, and it would have proven her humanity beyond question--she is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for the good of the crew. She'd be back just as quick as Janeway will be from her visit with the Q, and it could be a fantastically exciting story.

 

[teya]

Oh, and Seven didn't need to die in the sacrifice. She could have "rejoined" the Borg--what a cool setup for follow-up fanfiction!

But only if she was the Voyager Seven and not re-assimilated, but rather downloads experiences... That would have given collective food for thought

Well, she wouldn't have been dead, so they could have mounted a determined effort to rescue her. I can't imagine that Janeway would leave her behind (that is, after all, one of her rules). It would have been in character, as Seven has been tempted to do something like this before, and it would have proven her humanity beyond question--she is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for the good of the crew. She'd be back just as quick as Janeway will be from her visit with the Q, and it could be a fantastically exciting story.

Why is it that only Seven has to give her life (or close to it) to prove her humanity beyond question?


IMO, she already has.

 

[froot]

What I hate about J/C fic is when J/C fic writters turn Janeway into a woosy (sp?) little girl and Chak is some macho hero...

That's what I hate about most C/7 fanfic!

Oh, and Seven didn't need to die in the sacrifice. She could have "rejoined" the Borg--what a cool setup for follow-up fanfiction!

Hate that idea, too.


It's really funny that the ones who wanted Seven to die or rejoin the Collective are those who are most upset that they killed Janeway off Trek Lit. It's different when it's your favorite, isn't it?

You clearly have never read anything I (or others) have said on the matter. I've said about a billion times that I think it would have been fitting for the character if Janeway died at the end of the series. I actually expected it to happen - and what they did with Admiral Janeway makes me believe the thought crossed the writers' minds as well. If not her, than I think Seven's death/sacrifice would have also been interesting. It's not out of hate for the characters. Quite the opposite.

The how and why of Janeway's TrekLit death is what bothers me, not that she's dead.

 

[lurok]

Well, she wouldn't have been dead, so they could have mounted a determined effort to rescue her. I can't imagine that Janeway would leave her behind (that is, after all, one of her rules). It would have been in character, as Seven has been tempted to do something like this before, and it would have proven her humanity beyond question--she is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for the good of the crew. She'd be back just as quick as Janeway will be from her visit with the Q, and it could be a fantastically exciting story.

Would be a great story, and even reading what you write now think better than Endgame

I don't mind sacrificing Seven (heck, anyone) for ultimate resolution.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

What I hate about J/C fic is when J/C fic writters turn Janeway into a woosy (sp?) little girl and Chak is some macho hero...

That's what I hate about most C/7 fanfic!

Oh, and Seven didn't need to die in the sacrifice. She could have "rejoined" the Borg--what a cool setup for follow-up fanfiction!

Hate that idea, too.


It's really funny that the ones who wanted Seven to die or rejoin the Collective are those who are most upset that they killed Janeway off Trek Lit. It's different when it's your favorite, isn't it?

Having 7 rejoin the Borg would be incredibly cruel.

Anyway I have no desire for 7 to die AND I think BD's best use is toilet paper.

 

[lurok]

Why is it that only Seven has to give her life (or close to it) to prove her humanity beyond question?

But dramatically/aesthetically, she already has. That's the beauty and tragedy of it.

 

[Shatnertage]

Janeway dying at the very end would have made her like Hackman in The Poseidon Adventure.

But what's the point of killing off a character in the finale? You don't get much out of it dramatically, since everyone's going away anyway, and you kill the potential for spin-off stuff.