Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generations?

[JarodRussell]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

I'm on my way out, so I can't go into detail or anything. But I could think of a million b plots for Data that would have worked a lot better than the attempts at humor we got in the film.

Well. Write the B Plot, and then see if it survives Berman, Spiner, the director, the studio, and test audiences.

And it's always easier for a fan to rewrite a finished movie than to write an entirely new movie script on a blank page.

That's a lame excuse. Who told the writers that the B-plot had to involve Data's emotion chip? Who told them they had to write really bad jokes for Data and even have him sing? Who told them the B-plot should have almost nothing to do with the A-plot? These were all choices the writers made should take responsibility for.

It's not an excuse, it's simply how it is. You'd be the first to come up with a plot that is 100% bullet proof.

 

[Aldo]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

ShatnersToupee makes a good point though. There is a million different ways they could have gone with the Data B-plot. The fact that they made it into lame comic relief...which really has nothing to do with the main plot of the film was a mistake.

 

[ShatnersToupee]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Eh, The emotion chip subplot was a pretty understandable way to go for Data's character and the big screen. It allowed for comedy relief as well as some character development.

The emotion chip subplot failed for two reasons. First, it has nothing to do with the A-plot. Except for the moment where Data becomes afraid, it adds nothing to the main story. Second, it cheapened the character of Data. Part of Data's appeal is that he's the guy who's always trying to understand humans, but never will. By giving Data the emotion chip, you take that away.

Comic relief is good, but it should come about naturally, not feel like it's forced. The writers of TVH knew this. The jokes in that movie aren't there just for the sake of getting a laugh. They're there because they make sense. For example, Chekov asking the cop about nuclear vessels. It's funny because he's Russian. But it doesn't feel contrived because it makes perfect sense that Chekov would've asked for directions. The humor in Generations however, and pretty much every post-TVH movie, feels forced.

It's not an excuse, it's simply how it is. You'd be the first to come up with a plot that is 100% bullet proof.

Actually I wouldn't. I'm sure whatever I came up with would have problems with it too. The difference is that I'm not holding myself out as a professional. But Braga and Moore are, which is why they deserve to be held to a much higher standard.

 

[CoveTom]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Comic relief is good, but it should come about naturally, not feel like it's forced. The writers of TVH knew this. The jokes in that movie aren't there just for the sake of getting a laugh. They're there because they make sense. For example, Chekov asking the cop about nuclear vessels. It's funny because he's Russian. But it doesn't feel contrived because it makes perfect sense that Chekov would've asked for directions. The humor in Generations however, and pretty much every post-TVH movie, feels forced.

Unfortunately, it was the success of TVH that basically forced all future Trek movie writers to attempt to shoehorn humor in, whether it was appropriate or not. Hollywood studios love to try to follow a formula to duplicate success. TVH was a comedy, and was successful, therefore future Treks will be successful if they have a lot of comedy. That's why humor is forced into TFF, for example, in places where it clearly doesn't belong.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

I am not disagreeing with you but experienced director could have persuaded the producers that Gen needed a rewrite.

I'm not so sure. The original choice to direct GEN was Leonard Nimoy. He met with Rick Berman, and expressed his concerns about the script, and the two chose to part ways because Berman was unwilling to undertake a rewrite. So they brought in David Carson instead. I think they were pretty well set on the script by that point.

So it was really the sequence of events. Falsely perceived need to jump into the film production on the heels of S7 - wtf it was a hugely popular TV show, let the anticipation build, work on GEN for a year or so... and then Nimoy's understandably tentative interest in directing a rushed project with story problems.
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9hg0uMwUrI[/yt] Not that he's infallible but Nimoy was right, and when it came to Star Trek films he had the most experience. Can't help but wonder if they'd slowed their pace and had him more involved.

 

[sonak]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Eh, The emotion chip subplot was a pretty understandable way to go for Data's character and the big screen. It allowed for comedy relief as well as some character development.

The emotion chip subplot failed for two reasons. First, it has nothing to do with the A-plot. Except for the moment where Data becomes afraid, it adds nothing to the main story. Second, it cheapened the character of Data. Part of Data's appeal is that he's the guy who's always trying to understand humans, but never will. By giving Data the emotion chip, you take that away.

Comic relief is good, but it should come about naturally, not feel like it's forced. The writers of TVH knew this. The jokes in that movie aren't there just for the sake of getting a laugh. They're there because they make sense. For example, Chekov asking the cop about nuclear vessels. It's funny because he's Russian. But it doesn't feel contrived because it makes perfect sense that Chekov would've asked for directions. The humor in Generations however, and pretty much every post-TVH movie, feels forced.

It's not an excuse, it's simply how it is. You'd be the first to come up with a plot that is 100% bullet proof.

Actually I wouldn't. I'm sure whatever I came up with would have problems with it too. The difference is that I'm not holding myself out as a professional. But Braga and Moore are, which is why they deserve to be held to a much higher standard.

Er, that's one explanation on why the Data B-plot "failed," but I already know the difference between forced humor and natural humor. As I mentioned, some of the humor worked for me and some didn't.(the Ten-Forward "I hate this!" scene was pretty great, too.)

Clearly, the writers agreed that the emotion chip took away much of what was special about Data since they tone down its influence in FC, then pretty much retcon it out of existence in the last two movies.


I think the criticism that the emotion chip plot doesn't connect with the main plot is valid, other than the nice scene in stellar cartography where Data and Picard have to put aside their "issues" and work on a solution to the problem at hand.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

I don't see how it doesn't connect with the main plot. It gives Picard two mirrors. One mirror is Soran. Lost everything. Went insane. Second mirror is Data. Lost Geordi due to his incompetence, can't handle emotions. That leads to the already mentioned "nice scene" in stellar cartography.

As the main theme of Generations is "learn to let go and learn to live with it", Data's B Plot fits pretty nicely into it.

 

[GalaxyX]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Brent Spiner thinks he's a comedian, but only comes across as a Stooge.

 

[Gaith]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

ShatnersToupee makes a good point though. There is a million different ways they could have gone with the Data B-plot. The fact that they made it into lame comic relief...which really has nothing to do with the main plot of the film was a mistake.

Again, that's assuming that the studio didn't demand significant comic relief in some form. Perhaps you have a better idea of where they could have drawn it from?

Comic relief is good, but it should come about naturally, not feel like it's forced. The writers of TVH knew this. The jokes in that movie aren't there just for the sake of getting a laugh.

No, but the whole bloomin' story of the movie is.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Except for the moment where Data becomes afraid, it adds nothing to the main story.

And the exuberance Data displays at the destruction of the enemy ship also add to the overall story, and best of all the tearful joy he experiences when his cat Spot is found live, the last being one of the most touching moments of any of the films.

The "Data B-story" worked just fine.

 

[Jeyl]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Personally, I think stories that involve "passing the torch" are just lame, and Generations was pretty much the lamest out of all of them. For one thing, the Next Generation series already ended their seven year run, so having a "passing the torch" moment after all of that kind of misses the point entirely.

You know, screw it. This wasn't a passing the torch story. This was a story about the Next Generation crew doing everything wrong which results in a two stars exploding, the destruction of a populated solar system and the destruction of the Enterprise with all hands (except for Picard). What comes later is simply Picard begging Captain Kirk to save the day. For a movie that was supposed to pass the torch, it feels more like the TNG crew dropping the torch every few feet with the original series having to come in and lift them up from the ground all the way to the finish line.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

LOL, this thread sounds like Generations was some horrible disaster.

 

[MikeS]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Interestingly, if you listen to the commentary on the Generations Blu-Ray, there's a comment in there that Paramount cut out from the DVD's commentary for some reason. Moore says that they briefly discussed making Kirk's Nexus love interest Carol Marcus but Paramount put the kibosh on that since they didn't want any callbacks to the previous films.

Interesting. Seems Paramount always felt continuity like that would make the film (and in Voyagers case, show) less mainstream.

I have never understood the studio's reluctance to have any continuity. A passing reference to a "Carol", rather than the name they went with (I cannot even remember her name!), would not have distracted any new audience. It would only have been noticiable to fans and doesn't even distract from or have anything to do with the story.

Funnily enough ST:09 did these "in-references" brilliantly (Delta Vega, Captain Archers prize-beagle), without preventing a new audience from enjoying it.

 

[sonak]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

studios can often underestimate their audiences.

 

[ShatnersToupee]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

So it was really the sequence of events. Falsely perceived need to jump into the film production on the heels of S7 - wtf it was a hugely popular TV show, let the anticipation build, work on GEN for a year or so... and then Nimoy's understandably tentative interest in directing a rushed project with story problems.

It wasn't entirely false. The TOS movies were becoming too expensive to produce. So the studio decided it would be cheaper to make TNG movies. But they also thought no one would pay to see a TNG movie if the TV show were still on. To some extent, I agree. I suppose the studio could've waited a year or two after TNG ended before doing the first movie. But I think they were worried that would leave too long a gap between movies.

I don't see how it doesn't connect with the main plot. It gives Picard two mirrors. One mirror is Soran. Lost everything. Went insane. Second mirror is Data. Lost Geordi due to his incompetence, can't handle emotions. That leads to the already mentioned "nice scene" in stellar cartography.

As the main theme of Generations is "learn to let go and learn to live with it", Data's B Plot fits pretty nicely into it.

I think you're stretching. If that was the intent of the writers, they did a poor job of showing it.

Again, that's assuming that the studio didn't demand significant comic relief in some form. Perhaps you have a better idea of where they could have drawn it from?

I'm sure the studio demanded, just like they did with Star Trek V and we saw how that turned out. You can't have a movie about the search for God and then inject humor.

No, but the whole bloomin' story of the movie is.

The difference is that they didn't take a serious story and ask "where can we insert jokes?" Instead, they started off wanting to make a lighthearted movie and thought of a situation that would lend itself to more humor.

And the exuberance Data displays at the destruction of the enemy ship also add to the overall story, and best of all the tearful joy he experiences when his cat Spot is found live, the last being one of the most touching moments of any of the films.

Oh please. It was incredibly lame to have Data yell yes like that. Do you recall ever seeing a similar moment in any of the TOS movies? As for him crying about Spot, what struck me about that moment is that we see Data crying over a cat, but no ceremony for Kirk, a major character in the Star Trek franchise. Instead they quickly bury him and move on.

I have never understood the studio's reluctance to have any continuity. A passing reference to a "Carol", rather than the name they went with (I cannot even remember her name!), would not have distracted any new audience. It would only have been noticiable to fans and doesn't even distract from or have anything to do with the story.

I think their big concern with the TNG gang is that people might not accept them and demand the TOS crew back. It seemed like the studio was anxious to bury TOS and move forward. So no references to past movies and let's kill off Kirk so there's no way to bring back the TOS crew.

 

[ice]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

You know, screw it. This wasn't a passing the torch story. This was a story about the Next Generation crew doing everything wrong which results in a two stars exploding, the destruction of a populated solar system and the destruction of the Enterprise with all hands (except for Picard). What comes later is simply Picard begging Captain Kirk to save the day. For a movie that was supposed to pass the torch, it feels more like the TNG crew dropping the torch every few feet with the original series having to come in and lift them up from the ground all the way to the finish line.

Quote of the thread!

 

[ShatnersToupee]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

You know, screw it. This wasn't a passing the torch story. This was a story about the Next Generation crew doing everything wrong which results in a two stars exploding, the destruction of a populated solar system and the destruction of the Enterprise with all hands (except for Picard). What comes later is simply Picard begging Captain Kirk to save the day. For a movie that was supposed to pass the torch, it feels more like the TNG crew dropping the torch every few feet with the original series having to come in and lift them up from the ground all the way to the finish line.

The movie does an excellent job of showing the TNG crew to be an incompetent bunch. In the opening act, we have Kirk take command of the Enterprise-B from a captain in over his head, save a bunch of refuges and the ship, and then die. Then we're introduced to the new crew. The new captain cries, gets beat up by a really old guy, knows what the villain is planning to do but still fails to prevent it, and then asks a female bartender with a funny hat to help him defeat the villain, the same villain who beat him up earlier. Wow Picard. You need this overweight black woman to help you in a fist fight with some old guy? Finally, you bring back that captain who supposedly died earlier. And unlike you, he can actually fight. So you let him do the fighting while you fumble with a computer console. Wow. Now that's a heroic figure that I want to see in future movies. If you had never seen Star Trek before, you'd probably come away from this movie wondering why they killed Kirk. He seemed like a real hero. This other guy seems like a real wuss.

Then there's the rest of his crew. In one scene, the captain notes that the enemy ship is an old clunker and you have the finest ship in the fleet. And yet when you get your crewman back, you don't bother to check him or his visor for a camera. Even after it's obvious they can shoot through your shields, do you start shooting back and blow away that tiny enemy ship? No. Do you remodulate your shields like you've done every time you faced the Borg? No. Instead, you turn and run. Meanwhile, you come up with some technobabble BS solution to trick the enemy into lowering its shields cause it's not like the flagship would have enough firepower to wear down the enemy's shields. Finally, after you've defeated the enemy, you let the ship's therapist pilot the ship, which she then crashes.

The more I think about this movie, the more dumbfounded I am that Berman thought Braga and Moore should be allowed to write another movie. Braga gets a lot of criticism for not being a fan of TOS. But if you go off this movie, you almost think he's not a fan of TNG, given how badly the crew is depicted here.

 

[sonak]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

You guys seen RLM's take on Generations and the Nexus scene where he's like "so wait, you're telling me that Captain Kirk is just a replacement for GUINAN?"

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

You guys seen RLM's take on Generations and the Nexus scene where he's like "so wait, you're telling me that Captain Kirk is just a replacement for GUINAN?"

I'd take Guinan over Kirk any day.

An over-the-hill former Starship Captain, or a mysterious centuries-old woman who has survived the Borg and is the bane of Q's existence. No contest really.

But that's just me.

 

[sonak]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

You guys seen RLM's take on Generations and the Nexus scene where he's like "so wait, you're telling me that Captain Kirk is just a replacement for GUINAN?"

I'd take Guinan over Kirk any day.

An over-the-hill former Starship Captain, or a mysterious centuries-old woman who has survived the Borg and is the bane of Q's existence. No contest really.

But that's just me.

you misunderstood. I think Guinan is a very cool character. But the situation in question involved Picard trying to draft somebody into helping him in a fistfight/battle. And the movie makes Kirk out to be just a replacement for Guinan in that role, which is pretty ludicrous.


Try to imagine Guinan in that fight scene on Veridian III alongside Picard.