Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generations?

[ColeMercury]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

About the "echoes" of people in the Nexus -- I think it's implied that only the El-Aurians have them, because they left the Nexus unwillingly. Here's the dialogue:

PICARD: And you were beamed away from there?
GUINAN: Pulled. Ripped away. None of us wanted to go.

And then:

ECHO GUINAN: Think of me as an echo of the person you know. A part of herself she left behind...
PICARD: ...when the Enterprise-B beamed you up from the Lakul.

So Guinan, Soran and the other 45 El-Aurians would all still have "echoes" in the Nexus because they were "ripped" away, leaving pieces of themselves behind. But Kirk and Picard left willingly, so they separated completely from the Nexus and came back intact -- therefore, no Echo Picard or Echo Kirk.

 

[sonak]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

right, yeah I forgot that little addition.

So... what do these echoes do when they're not providing info to new residents of the nexus?

 

[Colonel Midnight]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

^ Bouncing off the walls of the energy ribbon, like a good echo?

*kidding*

Cheers,
-CM-

 

[USS Triumphant]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

My whole problem was why, why, WHY did Picard insist on bringing Kirk out of the energy ribbon right smack into the absolutely worst time in the past. Right when his hiney was in a mess with Dr. Soran.

Is it just me, or would Picard, maybe, you know.... choose to come out at a time when he could have still stopped Soran but also saved his brother's family from burning to death?!

 

[el Chalupacabra]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

He entered the nexus along with Picard the first time through.

After Picard came back in time with Kirk, Soren is killed when that platform with the missile explodes.


You'd think there's a "Soren-echo" in the nexus, because he'd been there twice at that point, back in the past around the Enterprise-B's launch, then again with Picard on the planet.



the nexus echo concept was weird anyway. The actual person leaving the nexus seems to have no recollection of leaving an echo behind.


Are these nexus echoes self-aware individuals who can manipulate the nexus fantasies or what?

I agree. The Nexus, especially the "echo" concept was the worst part of Generations. I always thought that it was included as a way to appease some fans who could not accept Kirk's death. Sort of a back door way of saying "Well Kirk's not really dead, because his echo exists int he Nexus."

 

[USS KG5]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

No, not really.

Unless - you blame the existence of the Nexus on it being a thingummy to bring Kirk and Picard into the same scene, in which case yes.

But ultimately like most of the Trek movies it needed a few more rewrites before it got to the screen. What runined it was poor writing.

 

[Stardate]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Experienced movie director with a backbone would have helped

There was nothing wrong with the direction of this movie. The directing and the acting are the highlights of this film, as both director and cast did their best to polish the turd of a script. Sure, it could have been grander and more cinematic, but paving over the sinkhole sized gaps in plot takes a lot of effort.

The issue with GEN is writing and production. Period.

I am not disagreeing with you but experienced director could have persuaded the producers that Gen needed a rewrite.

 

[Gaith]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

ps, i was reading on wiki that 2 different scripts were written, one by Maurice Hurley but it was rejected. Has anyone read Hurley script?

IIRC, it had Kirk only as a holodeck recreation which Picard would converse with throughout the movie for some oddball reason. I totally don't think that would have worked as a feature film (but an episode of TNG, absolutely...but they already did that with Geordi and Leah Brahms...oh, and TATV ).

And that's roughly what happens in the excellent Gen/FC bridge novel Ship of the Line.

 

[GalaxyX]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

This movie made my little brother cry. I will never forgive it for that.

 

[CobraCommander]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

I think it would've been so much better if Kirk had been on the bridge of E-D during the Klingon space battle. Who else has more experience fighting Klingons than him?
It would've been sweet to see Kirk's reaction to Worf on the bridge and him collaborating with Worf on the Duras' demise! Then if they had to kill him off, he could've died in the crash, doing what he's always done....saving the galaxy and saving the Enterprise. (well, part of it anyway).

Maybe shoving Deanna out of the way to take the nav com over to land the saucer section and then he gets taken out in the full brunt of the crash. Or something like that. That could've been cool.

Seeing the look in the eyes of the Duras sisters by seeing Kirk in the Ent-D captain's chair would have been priceless. Having him thank them for bringing him back to the present would have driven them insane. having Kirk take on the Klingons would have been the ideal use for him. I would have had him take the star drive of the Ent-D to kill the Klingons. The collision could have occured at the mouth of the nexus, thus swallowing him back in for retirement. But that aside, why couldn't Riker have done the same task. Can't he earn his paycheck for once?

I still feel that no matter what was done to this film, it should not have been made. The TNG script was typical season 7 quality. It was bland and uninspired. The studio should have waited until the beginning of FC to destroy the Ent-D. It's destruction by the Borg would have justified Picard's erratic and unstable behavior toward the Borg on the Ent-E. Cobra

 

[CoveTom]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

I am not disagreeing with you but experienced director could have persuaded the producers that Gen needed a rewrite.

I'm not so sure. The original choice to direct GEN was Leonard Nimoy. He met with Rick Berman, and expressed his concerns about the script, and the two chose to part ways because Berman was unwilling to undertake a rewrite. So they brought in David Carson instead. I think they were pretty well set on the script by that point.

 

[gunz380]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Generations got air time on SyFy last night, did anyone else watch it then? They had some other episodes playing around that time so I just had to veg out and watch for a while. It's looking like ST09 is now available through Netflix instant so I guess I'll try to watch that again on my Wii. I thought it was decent but certainly not the best.

 

[ShatnersToupee]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Generations had the same problem The Search For Spock did. In both cases, the writers were told what the ending of their story had to be. But that's still no excuse for bad writing. There was no reason the Nexus had to be the centerpiece of the story. The writers could've just used it to deposit Kirk in the 24th century and be done with it. Instead they used it as the basis for the villain, his motivation, his weapon, and his alliance with the Duras sisters.

As for the passing of the torch, I happen to think it was a great idea to have a movie with both crews. The problem was the way in which it was handled. Same with Kirk getting killed off. If you're going to bring him back for one more adventure, don't have him go back into retirement when the movie's over. That seems like such an anti-climactic way to say goodbye to such an iconic character. At the same time, if you're going to kill him, give him a good death scene, one that respects the character.

 

[Albertese]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

This movie was very poorly written. I always wondered why Soran needed to blow up stars to change the galaxy's gravity. Why couldn't he just fly a ship into it? That very question was asked on the show (By Dr. Crusher IIRC) and the reply was something like like "every ship that has gone near it was destroyed." So freakkin' what!?!?! Being on a ship that was destroyed was exactly how he managed to get there before! Why can't he do it again and say "screw the ship?" Far easier and faster than waiting for the ribbon to pass by particular stars.

Also the torture LaForge scene... What the crap was that about? He asks about trilithium but there's no reason for it. He already has his trilithium rocket which was demonstrated as effective and his next one already set up on Veridian III on the launch pad with the count down going. He's just killing time before the nexus shows up. He doesn't care about the Klingons. And he didn't.... ah oh well. It's not worth going into all this movie's deep and fissured flaws.

This movie was just really dumb.

--Alex

 

[Gojira]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Guinan told Picard he could leave the Nexus and go anywhere, anytime he wanted.

My whole problem was why, why, WHY did Picard insist on bringing Kirk out of the energy ribbon right smack into the absolutely worst time in the past. Right when his hiney was in a mess with Dr. Soran.

Why not bring Kirk back, say, when the Enterprise was first attacked by Dr. Soran on the space station. OR even bring Kirk back when they were getting ready to engage the Duras sisters' BoP?

Even if he had brought Kirk back to the Big E while it was in orbit and let Kirk help engage the BoP from the bridge of Enteprise D!

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Kirk kicking Soran's hiney but .....

Jus' Sayin'

So True. Picard could have gone back to 10-forward where he met Soran the first time and just vaporized him with a phaser.

 

[sonak]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Guinan told Picard he could leave the Nexus and go anywhere, anytime he wanted.

My whole problem was why, why, WHY did Picard insist on bringing Kirk out of the energy ribbon right smack into the absolutely worst time in the past. Right when his hiney was in a mess with Dr. Soran.

Why not bring Kirk back, say, when the Enterprise was first attacked by Dr. Soran on the space station. OR even bring Kirk back when they were getting ready to engage the Duras sisters' BoP?

Even if he had brought Kirk back to the Big E while it was in orbit and let Kirk help engage the BoP from the bridge of Enteprise D!

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Kirk kicking Soran's hiney but .....

Jus' Sayin'

So True. Picard could have gone back to 10-forward where he met Soran the first time and just vaporized him with a phaser.

while all of these plot criticisms are true, many of the highly regarded Trek films have similar plot holes, yet they aren't harped on.


It seems like folks obsessively nitpick Generations specifically and I don't get it.

 

[Gojira]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Guinan told Picard he could leave the Nexus and go anywhere, anytime he wanted.

My whole problem was why, why, WHY did Picard insist on bringing Kirk out of the energy ribbon right smack into the absolutely worst time in the past. Right when his hiney was in a mess with Dr. Soran.

Why not bring Kirk back, say, when the Enterprise was first attacked by Dr. Soran on the space station. OR even bring Kirk back when they were getting ready to engage the Duras sisters' BoP?

Even if he had brought Kirk back to the Big E while it was in orbit and let Kirk help engage the BoP from the bridge of Enteprise D!

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Kirk kicking Soran's hiney but .....

Jus' Sayin'

So True. Picard could have gone back to 10-forward where he met Soran the first time and just vaporized him with a phaser.

while all of these plot criticisms are true, many of the highly regarded Trek films have similar plot holes, yet they aren't harped on.


It seems like folks obsessively nitpick Generations specifically and I don't get it.

I can see a plot hole and still enjoy a movie. I like all Trek films and I actually like Generations quite a bit.

 

[GalaxyX]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

All they needed to do was not kill Kirk. Movie would have still been pretty bad, but forgivable. I would have even forgiven the destruction of the Enterprise D (RIP )

 

[Trek Survivor]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

All they needed to do was not kill Kirk. Movie would have still been pretty bad, but forgivable. I would have even forgiven the destruction of the Enterprise D (RIP )

Eh, I was more disappointed that the Ent-D "went out like a punk". When the Enterprise was destroyed in "Search for Spock" it was a moment of sacrifice, a really momentous drama coupled with some perfect dialogue between McCoy and Kirk.

The Ent-D just got a lousy send-off.

 

[ichab]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

I always thought the ending to the Undiscovered Country was the perfect send off for the original cast. Bringing back Kirk,Scotty and Chekhov for a final curtain call was unnecessary. Even with them taken out of it I still think that the story is weak and should have been scrapped for something else.