Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generations?

[Agenda]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Generations had the same problem The Search For Spock did. In both cases, the writers were told what the ending of their story had to be. But that's still no excuse for bad writing. There was no reason the Nexus had to be the centerpiece of the story. The writers could've just used it to deposit Kirk in the 24th century and be done with it. Instead they used it as the basis for the villain, his motivation, his weapon, and his alliance with the Duras sisters.

I think Generations puts Search for Spock in a good light, actually. Like Generations, Search was also automatically constrained by the plot that was forced upon it - bring back a major dead character. The whole thing couldn't be anything but improbable. But unlike with Generations, I thought it wasn't too badly done, on the whole. The ending of Search is one of the best scenes in any Star Trek movie.

 

[ShatnersToupee]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

This movie was very poorly written. I always wondered why Soran needed to blow up stars to change the galaxy's gravity. Why couldn't he just fly a ship into it? That very question was asked on the show (By Dr. Crusher IIRC) and the reply was something like like "every ship that has gone near it was destroyed." So freakkin' what!?!?! Being on a ship that was destroyed was exactly how he managed to get there before! Why can't he do it again and say "screw the ship?" Far easier and faster than waiting for the ribbon to pass by particular stars.

That bothered me as well. If it worked the first time, then why not do it again? So basically the writers made Soran look like a moron. Wasting 80 years to accomplish something he could've done in a few minutes.

I think Generations puts Search for Spock in a good light, actually. Like Generations, Search was also automatically constrained by the plot that was forced upon it - bring back a major dead character. The whole thing couldn't be anything but improbable. But unlike with Generations, I thought it wasn't too badly done, on the whole. The ending of Search is one of the best scenes in any Star Trek movie.

You're right and I didn't mean to suggest TSFS was as bad as Generations. TSFS wasn't a great movie, but the writers managed to write a decent story despite being told what the ending had to be. They came up with the Katra concept and that Genesis conveniently regenerated Spock's body. But the rest of the movie didn't spring from this. Kruge, him wanting Genesis, him killing Kirk's son, Kirk stealing the Enterprise, none of those plot elements had to do with Spock having an eternal soul.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

The great irony in making Generations a "passing of the torch" film is that Generations ended up costing the studio more than Star Trek VI. The whole idea behind retiring the classic crew and moving the Next Generation cast to film was to save money by making low budget films, and it didn't work out that way.

 

[ScottDS]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

For those of you who haven't listened to it, the commentary by Ron Moore and Brannon Braga is wonderfully candid and they address almost every issue raised here.

Re: the story, Paramount gave them a laundry list of things that needed to be in the film, including a "passing the torch" story, Klingons, a supervillain, a Data B-story, etc. Only Kirk could reappear at the end so there was no chance of the original crew meeting the TNG crew. They also raise an interesting point: the idea of Picard having to convince Kirk to leave the Nexus isn't very satisfying and at the end of the day, none of it means anything. To quote Braga: "They might as well be on the holodeck."

Re: the destruction of the Enterprise, this was actually an idea the writers had for the TNG season 6 finale but they couldn't afford to crash the saucer on a TV budget. I guess they simply filed it away for future use.

Re: Kirk's death, it was always a given that Kirk would die but both Moore and Braga admit that they went too far in trying to circumvent fan expectations: it was always "expected" that Kirk would die on the bridge of his ship so they wanted to go in the other direction. Moore's example was John Wayne getting shot in Sands of Iwo Jima just after our heroes declare victory. (Remember, the original ending involved Kirk getting shot in the back.)

Re: echoes in the Nexus, both writers admit the vague concept of the Nexus lent itself to too many problems, including this one and neither of them has a suitable answer.

Interestingly, if you listen to the commentary on the Generations Blu-Ray, there's a comment in there that Paramount cut out from the DVD's commentary for some reason. Moore says that they briefly discussed making Kirk's Nexus love interest Carol Marcus but Paramount put the kibosh on that since they didn't want any callbacks to the previous films.

 

[Aldo]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Interestingly, if you listen to the commentary on the Generations Blu-Ray, there's a comment in there that Paramount cut out from the DVD's commentary for some reason. Moore says that they briefly discussed making Kirk's Nexus love interest Carol Marcus but Paramount put the kibosh on that since they didn't want any callbacks to the previous films.

Interesting. Seems Paramount always felt continuity like that would make the film (and in Voyagers case, show) less mainstream.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

I am not disagreeing with you but experienced director could have persuaded the producers that Gen needed a rewrite.

I'm not so sure. The original choice to direct GEN was Leonard Nimoy. He met with Rick Berman, and expressed his concerns about the script, and the two chose to part ways because Berman was unwilling to undertake a rewrite. So they brought in David Carson instead. I think they were pretty well set on the script by that point.

Who says a Nimoy-directed Generations would have been teh awesomesauce? Nobody knows what his rewrite would have been. Though Kirk would have still been killed, the Enterprise would have still been destroyed, etc... because most of these things were demanded by the studio anyway.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

I am not disagreeing with you but experienced director could have persuaded the producers that Gen needed a rewrite.

I'm not so sure. The original choice to direct GEN was Leonard Nimoy. He met with Rick Berman, and expressed his concerns about the script, and the two chose to part ways because Berman was unwilling to undertake a rewrite. So they brought in David Carson instead. I think they were pretty well set on the script by that point.

Who says a Nimoy-directed Generations would have been teh awesomesauce? Nobody knows what his rewrite would have been. Though Kirk would have still been killed, the Enterprise would have still been destroyed, etc... because most of these things were demanded by the studio anyway.

Yes, I know that Braga and Moore say in their Generations commentary that these were studio-mandated choices. I discount their post-facto recollections, however, because 1) it's not what was reported and quoted at the time in multiple sources, and 2) it's not what the production evidence supports. Moore and Braga, by their own admission, worked on a story that 1) didn't kill Kirk and 2) didn't destroy the Enterprise, which, if they were working to a studio mandate, wouldn't have happened. Maurice Hurley wrote a scukpted that 1) didn't kill Kirk and 2) didn't destroy the Enterprise, which, again, if he were working to a studio mandate, wouldn't have happened. I don't know if they were blameshifting because they didn't want to own up to their own decisions, or perhaps they were simply misremembering. Either way, I don't put much stock in the Generations commentary because it's demonstrably wrong.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

I'm not so sure. The original choice to direct GEN was Leonard Nimoy. He met with Rick Berman, and expressed his concerns about the script, and the two chose to part ways because Berman was unwilling to undertake a rewrite. So they brought in David Carson instead. I think they were pretty well set on the script by that point.

Who says a Nimoy-directed Generations would have been teh awesomesauce? Nobody knows what his rewrite would have been. Though Kirk would have still been killed, the Enterprise would have still been destroyed, etc... because most of these things were demanded by the studio anyway.

Yes, I know that Braga and Moore say in their Generations commentary that these were studio-mandated choices. I discount their post-facto recollections, however, because 1) it's not what was reported and quoted at the time in multiple sources, and 2) it's not what the production evidence supports. Moore and Braga, by their own admission, worked on a story that 1) didn't kill Kirk and 2) didn't destroy the Enterprise, which, if they were working to a studio mandate, wouldn't have happened. Maurice Hurley wrote a scukpted that 1) didn't kill Kirk and 2) didn't destroy the Enterprise, which, again, if he were working to a studio mandate, wouldn't have happened. I don't know if they were blameshifting because they didn't want to own up to their own decisions, or perhaps they were simply misremembering. Either way, I don't put much stock in the Generations commentary because it's demonstrably wrong.

They sent the draft to the studio, and the studio basically said "kill Kirk, destroy the Enterprise", so they reworked that into the next draft. I see no contradictions there.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Maurice Hurley wrote a scukpted that 1) didn't kill Kirk and 2) didn't destroy the Enterprise, which, again, if he were working to a studio mandate, wouldn't have happened.

What's a scukpted?

 

[Agenda]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Too many cooks destroyed this script, much like with Insurrection.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

I might credit that, except that destroying the Enterprise was Moore and Braga's idea to start with; they wanted to crash the saucer at the end of season six, but it wasn't feasible on the television show's budget, and so they kept the idea in reserve for a time they might be able to execute it. Destroying the Enterprise wasn't a studio idea.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Maurice Hurley wrote a scukpted that 1) didn't kill Kirk and 2) didn't destroy the Enterprise, which, again, if he were working to a studio mandate, wouldn't have happened.

What's a scukpted?

I meant "script." I'm getting used to a new keyboard.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

I meant "script." I'm getting used to a new keyboard.

I figured it out five minutes later!

 

[ShatnersToupee]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

For those of you who haven't listened to it, the commentary by Ron Moore and Brannon Braga is wonderfully candid and they address almost every issue raised here.

Re: the story, Paramount gave them a laundry list of things that needed to be in the film, including a "passing the torch" story, Klingons, a supervillain, a Data B-story, etc. Only Kirk could reappear at the end so there was no chance of the original crew meeting the TNG crew. They also raise an interesting point: the idea of Picard having to convince Kirk to leave the Nexus isn't very satisfying and at the end of the day, none of it means anything. To quote Braga: "They might as well be on the holodeck."

Re: the destruction of the Enterprise, this was actually an idea the writers had for the TNG season 6 finale but they couldn't afford to crash the saucer on a TV budget. I guess they simply filed it away for future use.

Re: Kirk's death, it was always a given that Kirk would die but both Moore and Braga admit that they went too far in trying to circumvent fan expectations: it was always "expected" that Kirk would die on the bridge of his ship so they wanted to go in the other direction. Moore's example was John Wayne getting shot in Sands of Iwo Jima just after our heroes declare victory. (Remember, the original ending involved Kirk getting shot in the back.)

Re: echoes in the Nexus, both writers admit the vague concept of the Nexus lent itself to too many problems, including this one and neither of them has a suitable answer.

Interestingly, if you listen to the commentary on the Generations Blu-Ray, there's a comment in there that Paramount cut out from the DVD's commentary for some reason. Moore says that they briefly discussed making Kirk's Nexus love interest Carol Marcus but Paramount put the kibosh on that since they didn't want any callbacks to the previous films.

Ah yes. The big, bad studio made me do it. While I'm sure there's a lot of truth to it, it also sounds like a copout. It reminds me of how the folks behind Batman & Robin tried to defend their film. Oh the studio made us do this and that. Blah, blah, blah. You wrote a bad story. Own up to it. Don't try to shift the blame to the studio when we the fans have no way of confirming any of it. Even if all of it's true, it's hard to believe that Generations was the best you could come up with. Good writers can come up with decent stories despite restrictions. The problem is that Braga and Moore just aren't good writers. I've always felt both were overrated, particularly Braga who's good at coming up with big concepts, but lousy at writing a good story or character. Maybe they were burnt out after writing TNG. If so, then the fault lies with Berman for allowing them to write the script in the first place.

 

[Aldo]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

I'm on my way out, so I can't go into detail or anything. But I could think of a million b plots for Data that would have worked a lot better than the attempts at humor we got in the film.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

I'm on my way out, so I can't go into detail or anything. But I could think of a million b plots for Data that would have worked a lot better than the attempts at humor we got in the film.

Well. Write the B Plot, and then see if it survives Berman, Spiner, the director, the studio, and test audiences.

And it's always easier for a fan to rewrite a finished movie than to write an entirely new movie script on a blank page.

 

[Expo67]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

The only good things about Generations were these four elements.

1. The first half involving the Enterprise-B(23rd Century era)
2. Malcolm McDowell
3. Whoopi Goldberg
4. The deaths of Lursa and B'Tor

The less said about the rest of Generations the better.

 

[ShatnersToupee]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

I'm on my way out, so I can't go into detail or anything. But I could think of a million b plots for Data that would have worked a lot better than the attempts at humor we got in the film.

Well. Write the B Plot, and then see if it survives Berman, Spiner, the director, the studio, and test audiences.

And it's always easier for a fan to rewrite a finished movie than to write an entirely new movie script on a blank page.

That's a lame excuse. Who told the writers that the B-plot had to involve Data's emotion chip? Who told them they had to write really bad jokes for Data and even have him sing? Who told them the B-plot should have almost nothing to do with the A-plot? These were all choices the writers made should take responsibility for.

 

[sonak]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Eh, The emotion chip subplot was a pretty understandable way to go for Data's character and the big screen. It allowed for comedy relief as well as some character development.

How well the humor worked is very much dependent on your point of view. The whole "mr. tricorder," "magnetic personality" scene is pretty awakward, but I liked the "tiny little lifeforms" song, and the "oh, shit" line.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Personally, I found it all ridiculous. I found the use of the emotion chip in First Contact to be far more, shall we say, mature.