It's harder to relate to characters when they skip 10-15 years halfway through a story (especually since we got big time skips at the start). It becomes a disjointed montage rather than a continuous story.
Why did Pike promote Kirk...
- Thread starter Anduril
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^ But we're talking about one caption, at the end of the film. Not constant time jumping.
There is one major upside to assuming this happened years later:
* Both Kirk and Pike hold high ranks, apparently having skipped several when getting promoted. Kirk jumps from some sort of Lieutenant at very most to full Captain, a jump of three ranks at the very least. Pike jumps from Captain to full three-stripe Admiral, a jump of four ranks.
There's some neutral evidence there, too:
* Kirk remains bruised. But he's the type to get bruised every day, so five years could easily have passed.
* Pike remains in wheelchair. But he may have lost the ability to walk, at least for extended periods of time, for good - either due to Nero's torture, or then for some other reason that stems from the intervening years.
However, there's also evidence against this representing a time jump of five years, and it would appear to overrule the above concerns:
* The cadets appalauding are the very same who were present when Spock grilled Kirk on the Kobayashi Maru incident. They wear the same uniforms, suggesting that their careers haven't advanced one iota. That IMHO is a more important concern than the atypical rank jumps of Kirk and Pike.
Timo Saloniemi
Perhaps the same incident that crippled him in the prime timeline, also happened here, but didn't hurt him as much this time?
Maybe it's just a generic sort of crowd and we're not meant to notice that? Also they may not have had enough extras to do two completely different crowds.
No, Kirk's promotion is right after he saves the world. The Enterprise's subsequent launch and Spock coming aboard make little sense otherwise.
Yep. It also would explain why Spock is hanging around Kirk's inauguration.
You're giving the audience too little credit. Batman Begins had us flashing back and forth over years and viewers had no trouble keeping up or relating to the main character. If the concern is with having too many time skips, then I would rather they have just not shown us Kirk and Spock as children. Kirk stealing his stepdad's car was obviously meant to establish that he's reckless and undisciplined. But they could've shown us that later. Likewise, showing Spock bullied by Vulcan children for being half-human might've given us insight into his internal conflict. But again, there were other ways of doing that without having to show us his childhood.
Don't forget we jumped from Kirk the newborn to Kirk the little SOB at 10 12? to Kirk at 22 to Kirk at 25 in the span of what a half hour? Not to mention jumping ahead to the future for a bit in Spock's mindmeld with Kirk. Yes the audience could have handled a 10 to 15 year jump.
I wouldn't have minded a five year jump, much smaller than the 10-15 jump. Kirk was already a LT when the Vulcan crisis started (much like Saavik, a cadet LT herself). Riker was already XO of the Enterprise-D in his late 20s, say 27 or so. Five years out of the Academy and attaining such a position is remarkable but not unheard of.
To be sure, Lieutenant Saavik was never addressed as Cadet in the movies. She appeared to be a fully commissioned officer, a postgraduate student of the command arts. Kirk in STXI is clearly an undergraduate and is addressed as Cadet right until the Vulcan crisis - until the moment Pike promotes him to first officer. Perhaps Kirk's commissioned rank of Lieutenant is handed to him on that moment, and Spock later enters it into the ship's records?
Uhura is less clearly an undergraduate (Spock addresses her as Lieutenant, something nobody does for Kirk) yet is considered a Cadet (by Pike) until the same key moment. Lieutenant Uhura could well be a postgrad, rather than an undergrad inexplicably already holding a commission, considering we have no idea when she started her studies and how long they took... Lieutenant Commander McCoy is almost certainly a postgrad by the time of Kirk's Kobayashi Maru test; at least nobody ever accuses him of being a student or a Cadet. Lieutenant Sulu and Ensign Chekov are new to Pike's ship but nobody suggests they got aboard by virtue of being Cadets.
May be that Kirk is a postgraduate after just three years of study in this universe, even if he remained an undergraduate for four years in the other one; Starfleet certainly ought to allow for the rapid graduation of superhumanly bright students, as so many of its students literally are superhuman. .
Timo Saloniemi
Starfleet Academy is loosely based upon the military academies/programs of America and the ranking system of officers-in-training. Everyone in their final year are the highest ranking within the cadet ranks - but are not "commissioned" officers. If they did not make their oath, they're not commissioned. Not to mention there's no such thing as post graduate studies in a military academy. It is to be assumed that in Starfleet Academy, those that most who successfully graduate will be given the rank of Lieutenant, there are exceptions of course to some cadets on different career paths (Kirk, for instance).
And given that they were all soon to be graduating, and that they were on a field mission, their "would be" titles were used. Much like in TWOK - Kirk refers to Spock's group as his cadets, regardless of title used. They were still cadets on the verge of graduation.
Kirk was referred to as cadet because he was unauthorized and on academic suspension. He was basically ~limbo~ in terms of status because of his pending tribunal for his subroutine. Whatever he was did not matter until Pike took it upon himself to bump him up to XO.
McCoy already came in as a doctor. So his studies were advanced - much like someone coming into Navy, enlisted, from NJROTC they will be bumped up a rank or two for training already received in the program (depending on how many years served). That probably is why he was bumped up a rank higher than Kirk and Uhura. The movie pretty much infers that Chekov, Sulu, Scotty, and Spock are the only ones that have already graduated and/or commissioned within Starfleet.
tl;dr - They were all cadets using their "to be" titles due to special circumstances, but never were officially commissioned.
And given that they were all soon to be graduating, and that they were on a field mission, their "would be" titles were used. Much like in TWOK - Kirk refers to Spock's group as his cadets, regardless of title used. They were still cadets on the verge of graduation.
Kirk was referred to as cadet because he was unauthorized and on academic suspension. He was basically ~limbo~ in terms of status because of his pending tribunal for his subroutine. Whatever he was did not matter until Pike took it upon himself to bump him up to XO.
McCoy already came in as a doctor. So his studies were advanced - much like someone coming into Navy, enlisted, from NJROTC they will be bumped up a rank or two for training already received in the program (depending on how many years served). That probably is why he was bumped up a rank higher than Kirk and Uhura. The movie pretty much infers that Chekov, Sulu, Scotty, and Spock are the only ones that have already graduated and/or commissioned within Starfleet.
tl;dr - They were all cadets using their "to be" titles due to special circumstances, but never were officially commissioned.
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OTOH, there definitely are those in Starfleet Academy - after all, Saavik held all the identifiers of a graduate, including a commissioned rank, but was still attending the Academy and taking a test there.
That's not "given", though: there was no mention or suggestion that Uhura or McCoy would be graduating. For all we know, McCoy was an instructor at the time, with much better things to do than attend Kirk's third attempt at the no-win scenario, just like he says.
McCoy as per his own words is a senior medical officer aboard the Enterprise when the balloon goes up - a bit unlikely for a raw graduate, and against Starfleet precedent where raw graduates in the medical profession have been shown holding ranks much lower than Lieutenant Commander.
Might be - but it's a bit funny that McCoy readily dons his LtCmdr shirt right after arriving on the ship, while Kirk has no comparable garment. If the "recent graduates" brought their wardrobe with them, Kirk would have his, as he would not be anticipating getting turned down. If they had it waiting for them, this would call for lightning-fast reactions from Starfleet, as Uhura had her dress, too, despite not being part of the ship's complement originally!
Timo Saloniemi
Shit i just lost all that i typed gdi
anyway
Same as in the military academy/program, just because they call you Lieutenant and XO of your platoon/class doesn't mean you're an actual Lieutenant/XO.
Instructors wore black and sat separately from their students. Why would McCoy be sitting with cadets in a cadet uniform if he was an instructor? Because he wasn't.
Uhura was already in Starfleet and left with McCoy and Kirk to the Academy at the same time. The only deduction that can be inferred is that she was already a student on a field trip to the shipyards or had just enlisted. There's no mistake in that she was graduating.
anyway
Yeah, no. It doesn't work that way in military rank. A cadet can not hold a commissioned rank. Saavik was still in the uniform designated for cadets with cadet designation, upon graduation she would receive the proper uniform and rank. Just because they called her Lieutenant doesn't mean she was a commissioned Lieutenant.
Same as in the military academy/program, just because they call you Lieutenant and XO of your platoon/class doesn't mean you're an actual Lieutenant/XO.
Yeah, no again. McCoy was a cadet just like Kirk. He wore the same cadet uniform as Kirk and he participated in his Kobayashi Maru like every other cadet.
Instructors wore black and sat separately from their students. Why would McCoy be sitting with cadets in a cadet uniform if he was an instructor? Because he wasn't.
Uhura was already in Starfleet and left with McCoy and Kirk to the Academy at the same time. The only deduction that can be inferred is that she was already a student on a field trip to the shipyards or had just enlisted. There's no mistake in that she was graduating.
Why? McCoy is in his 30s by the time he enlists -- with a doctorates. Whatever training he recieved in Starfleet is just supplementary, as a doctor he is well certified and not fresh out of med school.
They could fix this easily in the sequel IF this Alternate Reality is patterned after the type of desperate situation we saw in TNG "Yesterday's Enterprise".
The Federation has been engaged in a prelonged war with Romulans, since not long after Nero's incursion - an event that made the two galactic powers aware of each other again, after the disasterous conflict during the 22nd Century. Twenty years on and there's a serious shortage of the right kind of Starfleet material. Pike's touting for recruits in drinking bars is sort of a standing order, and four years from Cadet to Captain is now the norm, designed to make up for ever depleting numbers.
The writers can also throw in how Vulcan and the Federation had grown apart from each other, during Spock's childhood and leading up to its destruction. Increased dislike between other people (mostly humans) serving in Starfleet and Spock & others of his race, due to Romulans having been on the offensive for decades and doing it very visually... not hiding their heritage, as they had presumably done during the Earth-Romulan War. Not accounting for what encounters would've happened, and what Section 31 managed to cover up and classify Top Secret. Or the war veterans who had to be quietly silenced, to give Vulcan's place among the Federation a chance to work.
The Federation has been engaged in a prelonged war with Romulans, since not long after Nero's incursion - an event that made the two galactic powers aware of each other again, after the disasterous conflict during the 22nd Century. Twenty years on and there's a serious shortage of the right kind of Starfleet material. Pike's touting for recruits in drinking bars is sort of a standing order, and four years from Cadet to Captain is now the norm, designed to make up for ever depleting numbers.
The writers can also throw in how Vulcan and the Federation had grown apart from each other, during Spock's childhood and leading up to its destruction. Increased dislike between other people (mostly humans) serving in Starfleet and Spock & others of his race, due to Romulans having been on the offensive for decades and doing it very visually... not hiding their heritage, as they had presumably done during the Earth-Romulan War. Not accounting for what encounters would've happened, and what Section 31 managed to cover up and classify Top Secret. Or the war veterans who had to be quietly silenced, to give Vulcan's place among the Federation a chance to work.
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Saavik was wearing the same uniform as everybody, with the same rank markings as any junior Lieutenant. Her collar just happened to be red - a detail the significance of which we do not know, but which apparently can be associated with graduated, commissioned Lieutenants in Starfleet. Plenty of commissioned officers wore that color in ST:TMP... And the color was again strangely applied in ST6. Bob Fletcher's original intent must be discounted here as it does not match what's seen on screen.
Most of the people participating in a Kobayashi Maru simulation are "slumming" commissioned officers, as established in ST2:TWoK. McCoy was a commissioned officer in the simulation in one case, and could just as well have been one in this other case as well.
And again, we don't know the significance of the uniform colors. Plenty of people at SF Academy wore those, while others wore the dark grey. We might deduce that the grey folks were instructors, but that doesn't mean the red folks weren't.
At the Academy, there's no suggestion of a "make-believe rank" order that would match the ranks our heroes are later quoted with. Kirk and Uhura both are considered Lieutenants (real or make-believe), yet Kirk gets to play pretend-captain in the simulation while Uhura takes the literal back seat. And we know Uhura is the senior of these two, even if only by a few weeks...
Also, unlike TNG, this movie gives no visual indication of make-believe rank for our heroes - already setting SF Academy well apart from the military academies of the real world.
Timo Saloniemi
Then I guess the guy wearing the orange jumper that says " Orange County Correctional Department " is just wearing that for style because we really don't if he truly is a convicted criminal because of 10235230582350923 different possiblities that could be attributed to why he's wearing said jumper. I mean, he could be wearing it because it's ~fashionable~
Brb, jumping into a flaming building.
How do you know this? There's no such thing as a "make believe rank". The ranks are legit because its a military organization training soon-to-be officers. They must establish a chain of command in order to instill the system in their heads. There's one at every military academy even at the civilian level with ROTC/JROTC. They are simply not comissioned. Big fucking difference.
Uhura not taking the Kobayashi is her choice. She is not on the command track so she has no reason to take the test. Kirk is taking the test because he wants to be Captain and in order to be Captain, or a XO, or to successfully past the command track or whatever the fuck the result is for the test he needs to take the Kobayashi Maru. It's testing his abilities as a captain and a leader so ofc he'd be the stupid captain.
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I don't know. In the promotion scene we see Sulu in a cadet uniform...
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd2859.jpg
And you can pick out the top of Chekov's head standing between McCoy and Sulu in this shot...
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd2850.jpg
Right here is Chekov in a Cadet uniform...
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd2851.jpg
So I would have to say that Chekov and Sulu were suppose to be cadets as well.
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Ah, I finally know where they got the idea to put the Chekov action figure in cadet reds!
Thanks
Thanks
That's so lovely, the entire bridge crew of the flagship consists of cadets.
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