Here's my problem with the Nero is just crazy motivation. There are a bunch of other Romulans on that ship with him that all go along with his plan. Are they all just as delusional as he is? Not one of them is a clear thinker on the situation?
Nemesis
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Amaris
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Perhaps, due to the emphasis placed on the chain of command, they assume he knows what he's doing? I'm not sure. History is replete with charismatic leaders who do insane, psychotic things and continue to have a following. It's entirely possible some of the Romulans rebelled, but that they were quelled and the rest fell into lockstep with their insane leader.
Well yeah, totally. That's all he needed to be to service the plot anyways, like Kruge in Star Trek III, or the numbskulls in Insurrection.
He does the job adequately enough imo, and there's just enough paper thin rational behind his actions. I think his actions are far more coherent than Shinzon, who just seems to be making it up as he goes along. Nero is quite clear that all he wants is to get revenge on Spock, destroying Earth is just a happy sideline. He's a paper-thin villain in that respect, but he's consistent.
I still don't know what Shinzon's plan was, only that whatever it was, he screwed it up badly. It's only thanks to Picard being even more stupid that he even came close.
Sonak,
Though lurok probably has a good point, I'm going to submit my reply. I think this gripe gets brought up a lot because its a good gripe.Granted, Shinzon has some issues with Picard, but his issues with the Romulans were much deeper, more visceral. He doesn't seem like a guy that would just quit at wiping out the Senate, and plus he was working with the Romulans to do that, still being used by them, or at least pretending to be used by them (in short, he hadn't really shown himself to be their master or superior, he hadn't gotten total revenge on them). I remember his exchange with Donatra, he expresses a general disdain for Romulans period, not just the Senate. Conversely, if Shinzon has a beef with Picard (why exactly? Since Picard was victimized by the Romulans too), why would he feel the need to take it out on Earth? Why would he feel a need to prove himself to the Romulans? And if he's doing it for the Remans, it seems the Romulans are their immediate problem.
Though lurok probably has a good point, I'm going to submit my reply. I think this gripe gets brought up a lot because its a good gripe.Granted, Shinzon has some issues with Picard, but his issues with the Romulans were much deeper, more visceral. He doesn't seem like a guy that would just quit at wiping out the Senate, and plus he was working with the Romulans to do that, still being used by them, or at least pretending to be used by them (in short, he hadn't really shown himself to be their master or superior, he hadn't gotten total revenge on them). I remember his exchange with Donatra, he expresses a general disdain for Romulans period, not just the Senate. Conversely, if Shinzon has a beef with Picard (why exactly? Since Picard was victimized by the Romulans too), why would he feel the need to take it out on Earth? Why would he feel a need to prove himself to the Romulans? And if he's doing it for the Remans, it seems the Romulans are their immediate problem.
I agree with most of your points. Don't get me wrong, Shinzon's motivations were weak. However, they are brought up with almost every NEM thread there is, and endlessly picked apart.
Nero's motivations are far worse, to the point of being ludicrous, yet they are not harped on as much.
My point was that it comes down to the effectiveness of the movie. I don't think the reason most Trek fans weren't wild about "Nemesis" was because they couldn't get past Shinzon's weak motivations.
Yes, that's the key. There's not a great deal of difference between the two and their nefarious plans. Nemesis is a poor film because it's boring, slow, soulless, has dumb action and no humour. Star Trek works because it's fast-paced, warm, funny, has great characters, great action scenes and is just generally a fun adventure.
QFT
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Amaris
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Rightly said.
Yeah, those are all the reasons why I like "Star Trek" in spite of the fact that I think it has a pretty stupid plot and villain. I think "Star Trek: Nemesis" has a stupid plot and villain too, but it also doesn't have anything that allows me to overlook those flaws and enjoy it anyways.
Sorry Where is Rape of Tasha Yar stated? A Romulan General took her as a consort in exchange the other survivors of the Enterpise C lived.
Rape is a huge assumption-Are Romulans Alien Rapists? I mean they are arrogant in their beliefs towards other races. This General put his career on the line because he "Became enamoured" by Tasha. Romulans embrace their passions-look at The Romulan Tokath who retired and married the Klingon woman-he used to run the prison camp.
Sela could have been easily setup in Nemesis with lines focusing on her activities in unification-her time travel origin was not required.
Well, a good deal of the audience will probably be TNG fans who know her backstory and as for the unitiated all they need to know is that she was a Romulan that was bested by Picard twice in the past and wants revenge, or whatever the plot is. I'm not sure they really have to go all that deep.
Though I agree that Sela was a horrible character. After her surprise reveal the character went downhill from there. However, I think Sela would've resonated with fans more, owing to that backstory no matter how lame it might have been, and been as decent a villain as Shinzon.
Though I agree that Sela was a horrible character. After her surprise reveal the character went downhill from there. However, I think Sela would've resonated with fans more, owing to that backstory no matter how lame it might have been, and been as decent a villain as Shinzon.
Hi All
Im A big Romulan Fan, so when rumours that ST 10 was finally going to be featuring Romulans as the main villians I was happy - I began getting the pics as they appeared thinking Finally I will see the Warbird on the Bigscreen and Sela, Tomalok and I thought it was going to be a big resolution to Unification Spock-
It was all win wiin
Than I saw it
The Romulans got a great visual update-We see Romulus We see the Senate-What happened next I was stunned in the senate of the most paranoid police state established in trek with the feared Tal Shiar so scary the dominion wanted them taken out first-A senator leaves a blatantly odd device and bingo the romulan senate is gone-hello security?
After that I just held back and watched it-ugh-now i have watched again and again.
Its a bad movie but it has its strengths one thing I want to state it is by far not the worst movie in the trek series
Star Trek 5 is rubbish its a mess -Spocks Half Brother wow how soap opera is that -So what is a half brother and where did he come from? who knows? gods at the centre of the universe thats the punch line
Generations-omg the nexus -you do know the whole inane Sorin must destroy a world to get into it plot is undone in the first minutes of the movie-it does not matter if your in a shuttle or enterpise b you ram into it you get into it
Datas death was bad but his death is way superior in sacrifice than Kirk the Legend, Kirk the heros death under some rubble fighting a hack who did not need to do what he was doing.
Insurrection-we get this gem with highlights such as the enterprise Joystick (Was it a quickfire? hopefully riker had the smarts to take the autofire off) The never seen before and never seen again failed face lift villians -
We learn that while the minor thing of the dominion war was going on the Enterpise E Sovereign class ship is being used to take ompaa loompas from a to b planet
Nemesis is bad but Those 3 are worse.
The only thing I can compare to that movie Skyline is the "The Coundown" comic never have i read something so badly written.
Im A big Romulan Fan, so when rumours that ST 10 was finally going to be featuring Romulans as the main villians I was happy - I began getting the pics as they appeared thinking Finally I will see the Warbird on the Bigscreen and Sela, Tomalok and I thought it was going to be a big resolution to Unification Spock-
It was all win wiin
Than I saw it
The Romulans got a great visual update-We see Romulus We see the Senate-What happened next I was stunned in the senate of the most paranoid police state established in trek with the feared Tal Shiar so scary the dominion wanted them taken out first-A senator leaves a blatantly odd device and bingo the romulan senate is gone-hello security?
After that I just held back and watched it-ugh-now i have watched again and again.
Its a bad movie but it has its strengths one thing I want to state it is by far not the worst movie in the trek series
Star Trek 5 is rubbish its a mess -Spocks Half Brother wow how soap opera is that -So what is a half brother and where did he come from? who knows? gods at the centre of the universe thats the punch line
Generations-omg the nexus -you do know the whole inane Sorin must destroy a world to get into it plot is undone in the first minutes of the movie-it does not matter if your in a shuttle or enterpise b you ram into it you get into it
Datas death was bad but his death is way superior in sacrifice than Kirk the Legend, Kirk the heros death under some rubble fighting a hack who did not need to do what he was doing.
Insurrection-we get this gem with highlights such as the enterprise Joystick (Was it a quickfire? hopefully riker had the smarts to take the autofire off) The never seen before and never seen again failed face lift villians -
We learn that while the minor thing of the dominion war was going on the Enterpise E Sovereign class ship is being used to take ompaa loompas from a to b planet
Nemesis is bad but Those 3 are worse.
The only thing I can compare to that movie Skyline is the "The Coundown" comic never have i read something so badly written.
Well by definition she didn't do it willingly, it was part of a transaction, to use a very clinical term. You use the phrase "took her", which is key. The fact that she attempted to escape suggests she wasn't in it for love...
Just got to end of s4 in first-ever watchthrough of TNG, and I must say think TooMuchFun nailed probs of Sela for general audience. Even having seen 'Yesterday's Enterprise', Sela's backstory was such a Basil Exposition moment in Redemption, and pretty confusing one too. Let alone fact that personally found neither Cosby's performance nor the character that compelling as villain. So rather glad they didn't go that route with NEM. As for David Warner, main drawback with him is that already been in ST5 and 6 as two different characters and I think a third might just have pushed too far.
But despite my reservations about Sela, I think Romulans probably were the best screen 'nemesis' to go for at the time movie was made.
Yeah, just to re-iterate, they're sort of tiptoeing/sugarcoating around the issue by saying, "he took her as his consort", but think about it. The fact that she was still trying to run away from him after they'd already had a child together implies quite strongly that she never liked him, even when he was impregnating her. Sounds like rape to me. I can't imagine her falling in love with him at some point and willingly conceiving his child, despite the unpleasant start to their 'courtship'.
And Lurok, thanks for the compliment on my analysis. The more you people talk about Tomalak as a big screen villain, the more I like the idea. If it had happened at all, though, I think the character might have been recast, simply because the studio would want to headline the movie with a younger, and/or better-known actor.
It would be unfortunate since Andreas Katsulas was such a fine actor (and fittingly, this probably would have been his final big screen performance since he died in 2006), but I don't know for sure. I was going to use Glen Corbett as an example of a guy who was recast with a better known actor, but who knows if he would have returned to his role of Zefram Cochrane? He died before he had a chance.
I think a lot of the movies we enjoy are the same.
Pretty much every Star Trek movie (and even TV shows) have flaws that make us scratch our heads. But if they have fun, enjoyable moments, and gave us that sense of adventure and wonder, we can easily dismiss any logical flaws, and keep our suspension of disbelief.
If a movie provides none of those things, then we find the logical problems rising to the top, and easier to nitpick to death.
That makes two of us.
I like Nemesis because without it, there wouldn't be THIS:
http://www.100thingsilearned.com/view.php?id=326
http://www.100thingsilearned.com/view.php?id=326
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