Plinkett is back

[Harvey]

I hate to side with those defending the awful prequels, but Syd Field's "formula" for screenwriting is pretty worthless if you're looking to produce something that has a modicum of craft. Bishop76 might be right, though. Hollywood probably would be better if the hacks (at least) could stick to the rules.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Plinkett looks at them as movies first and why they don't work as movies.

We're talking about movies, not rocket science. There are no rules as to how a movie "works". Apparently, they were good enough to gain a shitload of money at the box office (just like nuTrek, or Transformers, or Twilight, or Avatar, or Dark Knight, or Harry Potter, etc...) . I don't like them as much as the originals, but I've seen worse movies. A lot worse.

It's true, you could follow the rules and it still won't work. You don't have to even follow ALL of them, and it COULD work.

But there are rules.

For example, a character should remain consistent. That's not to say they can't change, but, they should change in away that is consistent with who they are. Or something has "changed them" like magic.

Or Tone. Tone should remain consistent. Generally, you aren't going to start as say... a slapstick comedy, and then suddenly turn into... sci-fi epic. Now, you can have a scifi comedy, but, you aren't going to veer from one tone to another.

Most movies have an inciting incident. We see a character in their lives and then Something Happens and it alters the course of their lives, and in most cases, that the movie we are watching.

So, yes, there are rules. As an audience we thousands of years of expectation on how a story is told to us. Sometimes, those can be subverted, and generally, the successful ones, are made by those who know the rules the best.

I don't like the PT that much either, but, of course, there are worse movies, a TON of worse movies. There have been a LOT of movies made.

 

[Thestral]

The PT movies have gone down in film history as truly unique in their awfulness, and badness on that scale will never be seen again, unless Lucasfilm does it.

That's just silly. I mean really, in a world where The Room exists, you're going to call the Star Wars Prequels uniquely awful?

I still enjoy Episodes 1 and III for what they are. Parts of II. Well really, all of II that doesn't involve Anakin as more than a background player.

 

[Bishop76]

That's just silly. I mean really, in a world where The Room exists, you're going to call the Star Wars Prequels uniquely awful?

We also seem to have forgotten about Uwe Boll's magnificent lineup. But really, Uwe's films are only slightly less incoherent than the PT.

 

[Thestral]

Uwe Boll's films don't have Liam Neeson. Or Ewan McGregor. Or John Williams. Or Ian McDermid. Or Natalie Portman (criminally underused on poorly written though she was).

But really, John Williams. That makes up for a lot.

 

[Mach5]

Uwe Boll's films don't have Liam Neeson. Or Ewan McGregor. Or John Williams. Or Ian McDermid. Or Natalie Portman

Or Ben Burtt. Or David Tattersall. Or ILM. Or Skywalker sound. Or Trisha Biggar and her costume department. The list goes on and on, but I don't see much sense in comparing Boll's B-production with any of that.

But really, John Williams. That makes up for a lot.

"The single greatest living composer", as Hans Zimmer calls him. Phantom Menace is on par with some of his best works, IMO. Other two are not, but probably still better than anything that Michael Giacchino will ever compose (and I am a fan of that guy's work too).

 

[Bishop76]

Uwe Boll's films don't have Liam Neeson. Or Ewan McGregor. Or John Williams. Or Ian McDermid. Or Natalie Portman (criminally underused on poorly written though she was).

But really, John Williams. That makes up for a lot.

Well, see, now that you're listing the talent that was in the film, I am starting to think it may be just as bad as The Room for failing to capitalize on all this talent.

John Williams is usually pretty solid and some of his tracks for the PT were good, but not many.

 

[Cmndr J Crichton]

Like it or not, Episodes I-III does exist. You will learn in a GARGANTUAN way how big they are on 2-10-12, and how insignificantly small haters of The Prequels are. Try going to a future Star Wars Celebration. The Prequel Trilogy fans there are legion. I count myself an un-apolegitic fan among them.

 

[Cmndr J Crichton]

These reviews inspired me to make do an opposite take on the Prequel trilogy. All I need to do is find the time to do it!

 

[Bishop76]

Well, someone already beat you to it with that 108 page rebuttal but more power to ya. Though I think you'd be hard pressed to come up with any actual good reasons why they don't suck. If you ever make it happen, I'll give your reviews an honest shake. Though I actually don't think it's a guaranteed cash in on those 3D versions. We'll see, but I think he might have been a bit smarter to have released New Hope first.

And really, it's hardly surprising that at a convention put together to love Star Wars that people travel to that you'll find a lot of prequel lovers. It's like saying you'll find a lot of people who believe in God in a church.

 

[Thestral]

Worth noting: When Episode I is re-released in 2012, it will have been around for 13 years (almost 13 since it's release). People that saw it when there were, say... 13-14 will be 26-27. The nine year olds will be juniors and seniors in college. For an entire generation of people who like Star Wars (soon enough more than one generation), the Prequels have always been there, and that number will only continue to grow. I'd be very surprised if Episode I's re-release isn't quite successful; I'd consider seeing it for nostalgia alone.

Well, see, now that you're listing the talent that was in the film, I am starting to think it may be just as bad as The Room for failing to capitalize on all this talent.

John Williams is usually pretty solid and some of his tracks for the PT were good, but not many.

Failing to get the most from your talent isn't the same as having none to begin with. My point was that even with the behind-the-scenes failures, they had some performers (and other behind the scenes stuff) that made the material a lot better than it often had a right to be (though not everything, of course). And for that, I enjoyed them.

And I'll stack up Williams' Phantom Menace score against anything from the Original Trilogy.

 

[Bishop76]

While I will be really surprised if the 3D films make gobs of money, I do think at the very least they will be mildly profitable. They may suck, but the Star Wars name has some draw. The only real evidence I can find that they might flop is the failure of the Clone Wars cartoon movie in theaters, but that has about a million other reasons going for it as to why it was a failure. I guess it's nothing more than a wait and see situation.

If I recall correctly, Uwe Boll had Ben Kingsley in a film... Hardly talentless. But just as inept at getting any good performances out of a talented person. The SW behind the scenes stuff is amusing if for no other reason to see how much these talented actors hated working on these movies and how uncomfortable they seemed.

I would have to disagree on TPM's soundtrack though - the only memorable track to me is the Duel of the Fates.

 

[Thestral]

I'm not really going to get drawn into an argument about the acting in Episodes I-III and certainly not in comparison to a Uwe Boll film. If you really think that, more power to you.

Anyway, about the music. Duel of the Fates, The Droid Invasion, Augie's Great Municipal Band, The Flag Parade are all memorable I think. I'll admit Episodes II and III weren't as strong, but they had good stuff too.

 

[Bishop76]

Yeah, there's nothing to debate - trying to figure out which pile of shit is the shittiest is a pretty pointless argument - I'm just saying both had talent in them that was wasted by their hack directors.

I'll give you Droid Invasion as memorable, but that's about it. The other two not so much.

Edit: Just a little story about the music - before the movie came out, I got the soundtrack, and Augie's Great Municipal Band was the very first indicator to me that this movie was probably going to suck.

 

[Mach5]

Anyway, about the music. Duel of the Fates, The Droid Invasion, Augie's Great Municipal Band, The Flag Parade are all memorable I think. I'll admit Episodes II and III weren't as strong, but they had good stuff too.

Flag Parade is certainly above average, but one of my favorite pieces of music from that score had to be Anakin's theme, with its occasional subtle hints of Imperial March (which were at the same time both creepy and sweet).

From the other two soundtracks, the only track that really stood out for me was Love pledge and the arena from Episode II.

Personally, I've found ROTS score to be something of a letdown, even though it received a Grammy nomination (Best Score Soundtrack Album).

 

[Thestral]

Yess... let the anger flow through you... your hatred makes you stronger.

Anyway, how can you resist Augie's Great Municipal Band? Big, bombastic, and celebratory! And of course a sped up major chord version of the Emperor's theme. Though of course taste differs, I can't see what's wrong with it.

Ultimately it comes down to taste, but I can't see any reason to put the Prequel music as any worse than just below the Originals. I mean, it's John Williams doing Star Wars - it can't be bad!

Flag Parade is certainly above average, but one of my favorite pieces of music from that score had to be Anakin's theme, with its occasional subtle hints of Imperial March (which were at the same time both creepy and sweet).

From the other two soundtracks, the only track that really stood out for me was Love pledge and the arena from Episode II.

Personally, I've found ROTS score to be something of a letdown, even though it received a Grammy nomination (Best Score Soundtrack Album).

Anakin's Theme is very good, sorry I forgot to include it. I do agree that Episode II and III aren't as strong in the music department, but I'd still put "Duel of Heroes" up there as an excellent piece, especially the more slowed-down soundtrack version.

Nothing of course was going to ever truly equal the original trilogy's best-known work, because it's become so iconic.

 

[Bishop76]

lol - just to be clear, I'm not angry or rage filled as we're discussing this - I'm pretty dispassionate and just being critical, and that story was just amusing to me. I remember going around to all my roommates at the time and letting them listen to it and all of us laughing at how bad the movies were probably going to be.

Ultimately, the music is pretty subjective and even when John Williams is bad, he's still pretty good. I just don't think any of the three rank in his top 10 (though I'm still not giving any props for Augie's )

Edit - Battle of the Heroes is pretty fantastic - I actually prefer it to Duel of the Fates.

 

[Mach5]

And of course a sped up major chord version of the Emperor's theme.

My reaction while seeing/hearing that for the first time in 1999. - Mind = blown!

 

[Thestral]

^ Though perhaps not as sneaky as Hans Zimmer's homage in Inception, it's certainly a very clever bit of foreshadowing/acknowledgement. And in such a happy song too!

Ultimately, the music is pretty subjective and even when John Williams is bad, he's still pretty good. I just don't think any of the three rank in his top 10 (though I'm still not giving any props for Augie's )

Edit - Battle of the Heroes is pretty fantastic - I actually prefer it to Duel of the Fates.

Fair enough. Each to their own, but the vociferousness amuses me, or makes me go . We're all guilty of it with different things I suppose.

Do you mean his top 10 overall or for Star Wars? Because except for the Imperial March and the main theme (if even both of those) I don't know that any Star Wars music makes his Top 10.

Anyway, for Battle of the Heroes.

 

[Bishop76]

I mean his top 10 movies. Not that I've actually sat down and compiled that list, but it's a pretty outside chance that the prequels would appear on it.

Edit: as to the vociferousness, well, it's the nature of fandom I guess. All you have to do is look at the second post in here to see why it happens. No one is capable of disagreeing in a non-sarcastic, non-confrontational way on the Internet. I'm guilty of it myself.