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Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

^ Thanks. The unevenness and inconsistency shows. I always suspecting some sort of dithering on Lucas's part. With a delayed release and more work, I always thought III could have been a much better film, and might have gotten closer to rivaling IV or V. Even so, it was still the best of the prequels by far.
 
^ Thanks. The unevenness and inconsistency shows. I always suspecting some sort of dithering on Lucas's part. With a delayed release and more work, I always thought III could have been a much better film, and might have gotten closer to rivaling IV or V. Even so, it was still the best of the prequels by far.

Well I think the problem was with the editing not the writing.
 
I think he means excised instead of "exercised".

(Although it could be exorcised, if a priest was required.)
 
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As I recall, the scene where Anakin turns to the dark side was originally different too. I have to re-read the Making of ROTS book but basically, Anakin was present during Palpatine's duel with Mace and the other Jedi. GL changed that to having Anakin arrive at the very end. I can't remember all the reasoning behind this. Though I think having him appear after the duel is smarter.

That simply makes no sense. He should have told the Son, "sorry, as a follower of the Dark Side, you're only a pawn to be used in my end game. I'm not going to join you - but you can cooperate with my plans to the extent I deem you useful to them."

This might be the biggest problem with Anakin. HE DOESN"T THINK THINGS THROUGH!!!

ROTS is a perfect example. When he learns that Palpatine is a Sith, he never seems to consider the fact that it was the Sith (Palpatine) that put Padme in danger all those years ago in TPM. Palpatine has been the reason Padme's life has been in danger the past decade. Anakin is prone to making horrible decisions to avoid things. Join with Palpatine to save Padme. Join with the Son to avoid the dark side. Basically join forces with evil men to keep from evil things happening. Worse, he knows what it's like to fall to the dark side from what he did to the Sandpeople in AOTC.
 
As I recall, the scene where Anakin turns to the dark side was originally different too. I have to re-read the Making of ROTS book but basically, Anakin was present during Palpatine's duel with Mace and the other Jedi. GL changed that to having Anakin arrive at the very end. I can't remember all the reasoning behind this. Though I think having him appear after the duel is smarter.

That simply makes no sense. He should have told the Son, "sorry, as a follower of the Dark Side, you're only a pawn to be used in my end game. I'm not going to join you - but you can cooperate with my plans to the extent I deem you useful to them."

This might be the biggest problem with Anakin. HE DOESN"T THINK THINGS THROUGH!!!

ROTS is a perfect example. When he learns that Palpatine is a Sith, he never seems to consider the fact that it was the Sith (Palpatine) that put Padme in danger all those years ago in TPM. Palpatine has been the reason Padme's life has been in danger the past decade. Anakin is prone to making horrible decisions to avoid things. Join with Palpatine to save Padme. Join with the Son to avoid the dark side. Basically join forces with evil men to keep from evil things happening.

The article talks about that too, there's even a picture of Anakin standing behind Palpatine as Mace and the others enter to arrest him.
 
Well I think the problem was with the editing

That problem seems quite obvious. Oh wait, you meant the PT, I was talking about TSHOSW.:rommie:

CorporalCaptain said:
Just leaving the dialog excised [yes, excised, not "exercised"] from ROTJ mentioned there would have made ROTJ noticeably better

I fully support the exercising of dialogue. Much of the dialogue you see these days is flabby, overweight, and in total couch potato mode.
 
This just gets messier and messier. :rommie:

They didn't understand that Anakin is simply greedy.
Now he's greedy? I thought he was fearful! Pick a motive and stick with it, George!

Greediness is a better motive for the guy because it matches up better with Vader. I can certainly see Vader as power-hungry and egomaniacal. I can't see him as fearful, because that's an aspect of weakness and Vader never struck me as weak.

But if Anakin falls because he gets too big for his britches, then the PT totally failed to deliver that idea through the writing, acting and directing. Instead, they delivered (possibly accidentally) a completely different idea: that Anakin is psychologically damaged due to his deprived childhood, and could never have made a decent Jedi. He was Sith material from a young age, and somehow, nobody around him noticed.

The Jedi failed to noticed this very damaged guy right under their noses, despite the fact that he was behaving like a stalker/psycho/crybaby throughout AOTC and ROTS. Obi-Wan and Padme, despite being very close to him, were similarly unobservant.

Anakin's fall came directly as a consequence of being immature, weak, whiny and very stupid. Stupidity is a big part of it. No one with half a brain could have trusted a Sith to make good on his promise to save Padme. And guess what, he didn't! Anakin didn't expect that? Geezus. What part of "Sith" do you not understand?

Now if you replay Anakin's fall while assuming that he actually doesn't give a flip whether Padme lives or dies, and all that is a smokescreen for what he really wants - power - then, yeah, that works. What still doesn't work is how everyone could have been fooled by Anakin, so then you need to revise how the character was acted to make him more crafty. Communicate to the audience that Anakin is deliberately hiding his power-lust from everyone around him, and convince us that smart people would have been fooled by it.

Just to make an even bigger mess, TCW is depicting Anakin as neither dysfunctionally fearful (in that his fears seem like reasonably concern so far) nor particularly power-hungry (which would require egotism - so far, his ego is nothing beyond healthy self-regard). Instead, he seems to be a decent sort of guy. His faults are impatience and a bias towards action and not thought. Those aren't necessarily fatal flaws for a soldier in battle, and in some situations could be beneficial. So if those are the factors that lead to his fall, then that all needs to be written very carefully.

Or, is the real reason because of his attachments? In TCW, he's not only attached to Padme, but Ahsoka, Obi-Wan, various clonetroopers, Artoo and the cosmos at large. He's angst-ridden about the death and carnage of the Clone Wars. That's too broad-based to be the "bad" kind of attachment the Jedi keep harping on. You can't be dysfunctionally attached to people you don't even know. That sounds like a "good" kind of attachment to me, caring even about people you'll never meet. If the Jedi are against that, then their ethical system is very alien from anything I'm familiar with and needs a lot more explanation.

There are too many contradictory ideas pingponging around. They need to pick an idea and go with it. I've always liked the notion of Anakin having the flaw of ego and power-lust but TCW can't credibly turn the character around and invest him with traits he hasn't had to date. I guess they need to go with the idea that he falls because he loves the cosmos too much. Good luck with that one.
The removal of these superfluous scenes unexpectedly began to shift emphasis towards the character's obsession for Padme, which Lucas then began to actively re-structure the film around, because, as he says, it seemed "poetic."
Whatever poetry he though was in that notion, was completely not conveyed through the movie. It was far less poetic than pathetic. The description of the chaotic and random way Lucas attempted to find the core of the main character really clarifies why it was such a godawful mess. He needed to figure all that stuff out before he even started writing the script, much less filming.

This might be the biggest problem with Anakin. HE DOESN"T THINK THINGS THROUGH!!!
The way that mish mash of a story worked out, it doesn't work unless you assume Anakin is an idiot. I've wondered ever since I saw the movie whether that could possibly be intentional. Who in their right mind sets out to deliberately write a story that isn't a comedy about a stupid weakling who creates disaster? Yet that is exactly what Lucas ended up with.

He should take the opportunity of TCW to "set the record straight." Now he just needs to figure out what exactly the record is. I suspect he's using TCW to figure out who he thinks Anakin is, at long last. Since he seems to have some smart collaborators on that show who know how to write a good story, I'm a lot more hopefully this time around that the results will be adequate or better.
Worse, he knows what it's like to fall to the dark side from what he did to the Sandpeople in AOTC.
That was never depicted as an actual "fall" to the Dark Side, just a normal explosion of anger, of the sort a non-Force-user might be capable of. But TCW does give him a close-up view of what falling to the Dark Side is like (and as far as he knows, the only way it happens): Ahoska. She was totally mind controlled. So now there is no possible excuse for Anakin dabbling in such things. How can he enact any plan while he's mind-controlled? He'll be a different person and incapable of doing anything he previously wanted to. Falling to the Dark Side is useless as a strategy for accomplishing anything.

I can't decide whether TCW is solving problems or making an even bigger mess, but I'm happy to wait and see. Whatever they come up with will probably be entertaining, and it can't be any worse than ROTS.
 
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Palpatine never promised to save Padme.

Chancellor Palpatine/Darth Sidious: [Triumphantly] POWER! UNLIMITED... POWER![Windu is sent flying through the window to his death]Anakin Skywalker: [Horrified] What have I done...?!Darth Sidious: You're fulfilling your destiny, Anakin. Become my apprentice. Learn to use the Dark Side of the Force.Anakin Skywalker: [exhausted] ... I will do whatever you ask.Darth Sidious: Good!Anakin Skywalker: Just help me save Padmé's life. I can't live without her.Darth Sidious: To cheat death is the power only one has achieved, but if we work together...I know we can discover the secret.Anakin Skywalker: I pledge myself...to your teachings..to the ways of the Sith.Darth Sidious: Good. Good. ... The Force is strong with you! A powerful Sith, you will become! Anakin Skywalker, you are one with the Order of the Sith Lords. Henceforth, you shall be known as Darth... Vader.Darth Vader: Thank you, my master.Darth Sidious: Rise.
 
Anakin is even stupider than I thought! Palps didn't even need to technically lie to him, just imply that he could save Padme! Unbelievably gullible. At the very least, Anakin could have demanded a definite yes or no answer, even if he'd have to be a moron to believe Palps either way. :guffaw:
 
And guess what, he didn't!

And guess what, he wasn't even there! "She could be saved" doesn't mean "I hereby render her unkillable"!

At the very least, Anakin could have demanded a definite yes or no answer

Palpatine comes off as pretty definite that the power exists.

I can't see him as fearful, because that's an aspect of weakness and Vader never struck me as weak.

If you expect Anakin to be identical to Vader, you're throwing out the turn.

I've always liked the notion of Anakin having the flaw of ego and power-lust but TCW can't credibly turn the character around and invest him with traits he hasn't had to date.

Nor can it throw the significance of turning to the dark side under the bus for you.

No one with half a brain could have trusted a Sith to make good on his promise to save Padme.

It's not Anakin's fault. One of his deep, dark secrets is that he's a closet EU reader who had Shadows of the Empire as well as the DLOTS and Legacy comics stashed under his pillow in the Temple. That's why he thinks the dark side of the Force could be used to save someone from death. He learned it by watching Veitch, Anderson, Perry, and Ostrander, none of whom have half a brain, as alleged. They're all troublesome "egghead" types with a whole brain, that's the problem. Whole-brainers and their ilk will never really understand the War on Accountability. If Lucas wants to copy things from the EU he should really stop and consider the imaginary rule that his copying from the stupid EU automatically makes Anakin stupid.
 
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Anakin is even stupider than I thought! Palps didn't even need to technically lie to him, just imply that he could save Padme! Unbelievably gullible. At the very least, Anakin could have demanded a definite yes or no answer, even if he'd have to be a moron to believe Palps either way. :guffaw:

After losing his mother I do think Anakin would've done anything to make sure he could save Padme.
 
That was never depicted as an actual "fall" to the Dark Side, just a normal explosion of anger, of the sort a non-Force-user might be capable of. But TCW does give him a close-up view of what falling to the Dark Side is like (and as far as he knows, the only way it happens): Ahoska. She was totally mind controlled. So now there is no possible excuse for Anakin dabbling in such things. How can he enact any plan while he's mind-controlled? He'll be a different person and incapable of doing anything he previously wanted to. Falling to the Dark Side is useless as a strategy for accomplishing anything.

I shouldn't have said "fall" to the dark side. Instead, Anakin knows the type of death and destruction he is capable of unleashing by giving into the dark side. Which is just what he did in AOTC.

Anakin should have had the red flags go up when Palpatine conviently stated that Darth Plaguies could save the people he loved from dying. I would have been like "Wow...that's awfully convient for you to tell me." That's like telling someone that there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and that someone goes out to look for it.
 
Anakin is even stupider than I thought! Palps didn't even need to technically lie to him, just imply that he could save Padme! Unbelievably gullible. At the very least, Anakin could have demanded a definite yes or no answer, even if he'd have to be a moron to believe Palps either way. :guffaw:

After losing his mother I do think Anakin would've done anything to make sure he could save Padme.

Even something he should know wouldn't work? A plan that is doomed to failure can't save Padme. So instead he embarks on an exercise in futility and not only doesn't get what he wants, but also screws up everyone's life, too. Wonderful.
Instead, Anakin knows the type of death and destruction he is capable of unleashing by giving into the dark side.
Presumably the Jedi teachings have already informed him that "the Dark Side is bad, m'kay?" There was no reason to think that having a bad temper or other negative personality traits would make Dark Side-ism any worse. Presumably even the nicest person in the galaxy would be just as evil as Palps if they fell to the Dark Side.

The only way any of this makes sense is if he had some reasonable expectation that a) the Dark Side would allow him to retain enough of his own persona that he can continue to implement his plan; and b) his plan was in no way dependent on the assistance of a Sith who could be trusted only to do one thing: stab him in the back! That's like their whole philosophy of life. How could he have overlooked that tiny detail?

Since neither a nor b are true, exactly what did he think he was doing?

I would have been like "Wow...that's awfully convient for you to tell me."
That is because you are a reasonably intelligent person who has a healthy degree of skepticism about suspiciously convenient coincidences that magically appear out of nowhere when speaking to a person who has every motivation to manipulate you in pursuit of his own agenda. ;)

That's like telling someone that there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and that someone goes out to look for it.

And falls off a cliff while looking for it, and manages to drag everyone in the galaxy off the cliff with him. Jar-Jar is starting to look like the smart one.
 
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Anakin is even stupider than I thought! Palps didn't even need to technically lie to him, just imply that he could save Padme! Unbelievably gullible. At the very least, Anakin could have demanded a definite yes or no answer, even if he'd have to be a moron to believe Palps either way. :guffaw:

After losing his mother I do think Anakin would've done anything to make sure he could save Padme.

Even something he should know wouldn't work? A plan that is doomed to failure can't save Padme. So instead he embarks on an exercise in futility and not only doesn't get what he wants, but also screws up everyone's life, too. Wonderful.

The writing was poor in the PT, compared with IV and V.

However, thoughtfully, Lucas did establish that Anakin was arrogant. Also, he established that Anakin was angry with Obi-wan, et al, e.g. for holding him back and for not making him a master when he was appointed to the council. Furthermore, the Jedi didn't exactly welcome Anakin with open arms.

Anakin had trust issues, abandonment issues, and anger issues. Palpatine flattered his ego, and Palps was supportive of Anakin instead of critical of him, as the Jedi often were. And, Palps was after all the lawful ruler of the Republic. It's not a stretch that Anakin ended up trusting Palpatine more than the Jedi.

Also, Obi-wan tried to sow seeds of distrust between Padme and Anakin in II, when in short order Anakin needed her [as it were] to help cope with the loss of his mother. This also helped to drive a wedge between Anakin and Obi-wan.

I'm not sure greed is exactly the right word, but certainly egocentrism, in placing his personal feelings above those of everyone else around him, coupled with his superior power, that put Anakin squarely on the road to the Dark Side.

Or, all of this should have been the case with better writing. :lol:

Anyway, this is as I see it.
 
Anakin was certainly arrogant, but a smart, power-hungry Anakin would have never fallen for Palps' bullshit. I don't mind if the character is a power-hungry egomaniac. What I mind is that he's so stupid and pathetic. It just utterly kills my interest in the story when I think that the protagonist is such a dolt that he deserves what's coming to him.

The fundamental problem is that Lucas can't write politics or psychology in a convincing way. Both are very complicated and even a good writer would find it difficult shoehorning complexity into Star Wars' style.

Look at the OT: the psychology is endearingly simple. Luke is an eager, green kid who lacks faith in himself. Han puts on a crusty facade but is a big softy. Leia is a bossy bitch who keeps everyone at arm's length to avoid weakness. And the politics are even simpler: Rebellion = good, Empire = evil.

That was the formula that worked. Why not stick with that? Have Anakin follow the mold of the classic tragic hero, with a lot of great qualities and one fatal flaw. He's power hungry, the Dark Side offers power. That's all that's needed. Let him be smart, heroic, fun to be around. He doesn't have to be a nasty headcase. He doesn't need to have Mommy issues or be trying to save the Republic or Padme.

TCW is expanding both politics and psychology, and I like that they're moving out of their comfort zone, but they need to walk before they can run. Because sometimes they're going to trip: trying to depict the problem of a corrupt Republic for instance. Just doesn't work very well since corruption yet another one of those tricky complex topics.
It's not a stretch that Anakin ended up trusting Palpatine more than the Jedi.

When he found out he was a Sith, the trust should have ended right then and there - even if Anakin wanted to join the Dark Side. He should know the score, Sith are utterly selfish. You can't expect an utterly selfish person to be helpful or trustworthy.
 
That was the formula that worked. Why not stick with that? Have Anakin follow the mold of the classic tragic hero, with a lot of great qualities and one fatal flaw. He's power hungry, the Dark Side offers power. That's all that's needed.

But Lucas was/is trying to shoot higher, and I admire him for trying. Even if he couldn't execute it flawlessly, at least he tried to create something more nuanced than just e.g. Jedi=Good and Sith=Evil, which is too shallow a formula. Even as early as around that "exercised" dialog in ROTJ, as it actually appeared on screen, we were told to expect nuance of formula in the prequels:
Ben [actual dialog]: ... many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.
Huh? Say what? That dialog came as quite a surprise at the time (1983). I believed at that time that Lucas was speaking about more than just the truth that Vader is Anakin. It is clear in the PT that he means it also to refer to the twisting of good and evil, and of right and wrong, and the just the general confusion of allegiance created by the Separatist War.

He doesn't need to have Mommy issues or be trying to save the Republic or Padme.
I guess the Jedi remain single so that they are not tempted to the Dark Side in order to protect their own individual families?
 
Anakin is even stupider than I thought! Palps didn't even need to technically lie to him, just imply that he could save Padme! Unbelievably gullible. At the very least, Anakin could have demanded a definite yes or no answer, even if he'd have to be a moron to believe Palps either way. :guffaw:

After losing his mother I do think Anakin would've done anything to make sure he could save Padme.

Even something he should know wouldn't work? A plan that is doomed to failure can't save Padme. So instead he embarks on an exercise in futility and not only doesn't get what he wants, but also screws up everyone's life, too. Wonderful.
Presumably the Jedi teachings have already informed him that "the Dark Side is bad, m'kay?" There was no reason to think that having a bad temper or other negative personality traits would make Dark Side-ism any worse. Presumably even the nicest person in the galaxy would be just as evil as Palps if they fell to the Dark Side.

The only way any of this makes sense is if he had some reasonable expectation that a) the Dark Side would allow him to retain enough of his own persona that he can continue to implement his plan; and b) his plan was in no way dependent on the assistance of a Sith who could be trusted only to do one thing: stab him in the back! That's like their whole philosophy of life. How could he have overlooked that tiny detail?

Since neither a nor b are true, exactly what did he think he was doing?

How could Anakin posssibly know it wouldn't work? There's no proof of that and given what Yoda told him about just letting go and not mourning the loss of life I can undrstand why Anakin would reject what Yoda told him, I can understand it that doesn't mean I agree with it.
 
But Lucas was/is trying to shoot higher, and I admire him for trying. Even if he couldn't execute it flawlessly,
He was a long way from simply not executing it "flawlessly." If the best he could do is catastrophe, he needed to set his sights lower, or here's a better idea: hire other people to write and direct, who could pull it off.

at least he tried to create something more nuanced than just e.g. Jedi=Good and Sith=Evil, which is too shallow a formula.
That seems to be the idea now, with the notion that the Dark and Light Sides are not good and evil, but both require balance. It's imbalance, not either side, that's evil.

But in the PT, there was no credible evidence that the Sith were anything but evil. The Jedi were good, and possibly idiotic and incompetent as well, but I never figured out whether I was supposed to think that about them, or it was an artifact of bad writing.

How could Anakin posssibly know it wouldn't work?
Because the only time he's seen someone fall to the Dark Side is Ahsoka. She tried to kill him and was obviously completely mind controlled. He doesn't recall anything of his own little Dark Side jaunt on Mortis, so as far as he knows, that's how the Dark Side works. Why would he think he'd have any control over his own mind when he's seen evidence to the contrary?

If he has no control over his own actions, then no plan he could come up with could possibly work, except maybe by random chance or expecting Palps to be a nice guy and do everything for him. Speaking of that...

He's also seen or at least heard of the complete selfishness of Sith. Ventress should serve as example of how Sith treat each other. Put those two together and being a Sith sounds like a losing bet.

As for Palp' malarky about saving Padme, that could have been him just talking out his ass. Anakin never had any reason to trust him and every reason not to: he's a SITH! Hello! :rommie:
 
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