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Christian faith in TrekLit?

Kestrel said:
Anytime Left Behind and End Times stuff comes up around here, I always love to direct people to the slacktivist's Left Behind series on his blog, which is a very detailed page-by-page (well, almost) examination of what's in Left Behind, what's wrong with it from a Christian perspective, and what it means, with a lot of humor and snark at times. It's in reverse chronological order, so you'll have to start at the bottom, work to the top, and then click "Previous."

It's also extremely long - started in 2003 and still going now. But it's pretty much amazing and worth it. :D

Oh, I'd like to second this. Fred Clark's a really great writer and my personal favorite Christian.

But even as long as the project has been going on, he's only like halfway through Tribulation Force (the second book... of, what, thirteen?). I spent something like two weeks or a month getting through Clark's old posts catalog, and now I may need to actually purchase the Left Behind novels. But I don't know if I dare experience them without an intermediary.

:techman:
 
Kestrel said:
Anytime Left Behind and End Times stuff comes up around here, I always love to direct people to the slacktivist's Left Behind series on his blog, which is a very detailed page-by-page (well, almost) examination of what's in Left Behind, what's wrong with it from a Christian perspective, and what it means, with a lot of humor and snark at times. It's in reverse chronological order, so you'll have to start at the bottom, work to the top, and then click "Previous."

It's also extremely long - started in 2003 and still going now. But it's pretty much amazing and worth it. :D

Oh, I'd like to second this. Fred Clark's a really great writer and my personal favorite Christian.

But even as long as the project has been going on, he's only like halfway through Tribulation Force (the second book... of, what, thirteen?). I spent something like two weeks or a month getting through Clark's old posts catalog, and now I may need to actually purchase the Left Behind novels. But I don't know if I dare experience them without an intermediary.

:techman:

I LOVE Fred Clark. I look forward to those Left Behind posts: back in '06, I read all 16 books in the Left Behind series, borrowing them from the public library. Truly terrible stuff, but made enjoyable by Clark's slow grilling of them.
 
"Picard considered Choudhury a moment longer, wondering just how skeptical he should be about that claim. He had never been a religious man, and while he knew something of Choudhury's beliefs and their historical roots, he couldn't claim to genuinely understand them. He did, however, understand the importance of faith - it was a lesson that had been driven home for him in that desperate last hour of the Borg assault, by holding on to hope when reason told him that all was hopeless."

William Leisner, Losing the Peace, p156

This is the best rendering of the ongoing (uncredited) relevance of the Christian faith in ST that I've seen recently.

Note that Leisner's Picard does not in the slightest denigrate Choudhury's Hindu faith (let's put aside the odd californication of same), nor the bhuddist influences upon it (ditto).

At the same time, although the author stresses that Picard has never been a religious man, he still makes Picard take a critical decision fully in line with modern mainstream Christian belief.

Could Picard have made it anyway? Sure. Is this what the author intended? Based on what he wrote, I'm in the dunno group.

...which is where I always thought that Picard was, an agnostic.

Yet now in TrekLit the fact is that Leisner determined that the "faith" Picard might have once held as a child has now become a lesson "driven home" to the man. It's a faith reinforced in Leisner's recognition of the post Typhon Pact world, where Picard at some critical point determines to "hold...on to hope when reason told him that all was hopeless."

What that tells us is that in TrekLit there actually is recognition of "the importance of faith" and as far as we can determine - based on all that's been written to date - that makes Picard a Catholic christian.

I can live with that. If it's a choice between believer and non-believer, I'm goin' with the first.
 
"Picard considered Choudhury a moment longer, wondering just how skeptical he should be about that claim. He had never been a religious man, and while he knew something of Choudhury's beliefs and their historical roots, he couldn't claim to genuinely understand them. He did, however, understand the importance of faith - it was a lesson that had been driven home for him in that desperate last hour of the Borg assault, by holding on to hope when reason told him that all was hopeless."

William Leisner, Losing the Peace, p156

This is the best rendering of the ongoing (uncredited) relevance of the Christian faith in ST that I've seen recently.

Note that Leisner's Picard does not in the slightest denigrate Choudhury's Hindu faith (let's put aside the odd californication of same), nor the bhuddist influences upon it (ditto).

At the same time, although the author stresses that Picard has never been a religious man, he still makes Picard take a critical decision fully in line with modern mainstream Christian belief.

Could Picard have made it anyway? Sure. Is this what the author intended? Based on what he wrote, I'm in the dunno group.

...which is where I always thought that Picard was, an agnostic.

Yet now in TrekLit the fact is that Leisner determined that the "faith" Picard might have once held as a child has now become a lesson "driven home" to the man. It's a faith reinforced in Leisner's recognition of the post Typhon Pact world, where Picard at some critical point determines to "hold...on to hope when reason told him that all was hopeless."

What that tells us is that in TrekLit there actually is recognition of "the importance of faith" and as far as we can determine - based on all that's been written to date - that makes Picard a Catholic christian.

I can live with that. If it's a choice between believer and non-believer, I'm goin' with the first.

The way I read that quote it does not imply that Picard is a believer, a Christian in any way.
 
I'm not asking you or anyone else to do so.

I'm putting it out there as what I consider is a reasonable inference based on ST source literature

Why do you think otherwise - based on the same source material ?
 
:vulcan: All the quoted text is saying is that Picard recognizes that faith can serve a purpose. There isn't even the tiniest allusion to the christian faith in it.
 
I don't see how you can take anything from that quote to say that a) he was or is a christian or b) that he was or is a catholic. You seem to doing a lot of reaching.

The 'faith' Picard might have may be in the Federation or in Humanities ability to overcome.
 
Well, the whole "He had never been a religious man" part doesn't sound like he's any kind of believer in the supernatural, does it? Also, more or less the whole episode of "Who Watches the Watchers".

He may speak about the importance of "faith", but it could be anything: faith in humanity's survival, faith in the Federation's values, faith in himself and his fellow officers. I'm as atheist as they come, but I will speak of the importance of faith during dire times: I just don't put my faith in any god, but in my fellow human beings.
 
Picard is from France. France is a secular society based on a very firm catholic christian/culture/history.

It is also the font of the enlightenment/revolution.

Why wouldn't Picard be proud and grateful for ALL of that?

Why wouldn't - when push came to shove as it has in TrekLit - that the essential teachings of his "faith" played a part of his decision-making? And his recovery?

Why is Christianity such an issue insofar as it might affect a fictional character as distinct from any other religion or no religion at all?
 
Picard is from France. France is a secular society based on a very firm catholic christian/culture/history.

It is also the font of the enlightenment/revolution.

Why wouldn't Picard be proud and grateful for ALL of that?

Why wouldn't - when push came to shove as it has in TrekLit - that the essential teachings of his "faith" played a part of his decision-making? And his recovery?

Why is Christianity such an issue insofar as it might affect a fictional character as distinct from any other religion or no religion at all?

You are attempting what is known as the Gish gallop, you've been asked some questions based on your original statement and instead of answering them, you've simply thrown in some more questions.

So let's return to what we are actually discussing - what in the passage you have highlighted, indicated that:

a) Picard is a Christian;

b) Picard is a catholic;

c) Where in the passage does it indicate he is talking about religious faith?
 
Why doe we need to have Christianity interjected into everything even though Star Trek has never really been about religious into more about faith in humanity, oneself, the Federation, and morality.
 
Picard is from France. France is a secular society based on a very firm catholic christian/culture/history.

It is also the font of the enlightenment/revolution.

Why wouldn't Picard be proud and grateful for ALL of that?
I'm from Italy, and you'll be hard-pressed to find a country that is more firmly Catholic. I'm quite proud of my heritage, which gave the world stuff like the Roman law, the Renaissance and the Risorgimento. Yet I'm an atheist. So, your reasoning is quite weak.

Why wouldn't - when push came to shove as it has in TrekLit - that the essential teachings of his "faith" played a part of his decision-making? And his recovery?

Why is Christianity such an issue insofar as it might affect a fictional character as distinct from any other religion or no religion at all?
Because you are making stuff up. That is usually frowned upon.
 
I'm not asking you or anyone else to do so.

I'm putting it out there as what I consider is a reasonable inference based on ST source literature

Why do you think otherwise - based on the same source material ?

Because there is nothing in that quote that suggests that Picard is a Christian.
As others have already said, you simply read something in that text that just isn't there.

But you could point out what leads you to your conclusions.
 
Guys - get a grip - what I posted is a quote from Leisner's book Losing the Peace. I gave my take on it and my extrapolation of it in the fictional Picard timeline.

What the hell are you guys doing?

So far, it seems like you are venting about your present day concerns. I don't wish to engage you on such and I don't think it's fair that you expect me to on this thread.

I'm asking you to take this quote and IMAGINE yourselves in the future and work with it with the understanding that we are in a TNG relaunch in the ST Treklit thread.

Religion ain't as easily dismissed as it once was - so what is one to make of Leisner's quote when it comes to Picard.

I've provided evidence that insofar as relaunch ST:TNG treklit is concerned, Picard is a believer. I think he's a catholic but that's neither here nor there.

You may not agree but that now puts the onus on you.

What else has TNG relaunch fic had to say about religion?
 
Guys - get a grip - what I posted is a quote from Leisner's book Losing the Peace. I gave my take on it and my extrapolation of it in the fictional Picard timeline.

What the hell are you guys doing?

So far, it seems like you are venting about your present day concerns. I don't wish to engage you on such and I don't think it's fair that you expect me to on this thread.

I'm asking you to take this quote and IMAGINE yourselves in the future and work with it with the understanding that we are in a TNG relaunch in the ST Treklit thread.

Religion ain't as easily dismissed as it once was - so what is one to make of Leisner's quote when it comes to Picard.

I've provided evidence that insofar as relaunch ST:TNG treklit is concerned, Picard is a believer. I think he's a catholic but that's neither here nor there.

You may not agree but that now puts the onus on you.

What else has TNG relaunch fic had to say about religion?

Gallop Gallop

So let's return to what we are actually discussing - what in the passage you have highlighted, indicated that:

a) Picard is a Christian;

b) Picard is a catholic;

c) Where in the passage does it indicate he is talking about religious faith?
 
Dear Joe,

As you posted this within a minute of my last response, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt - as I'm sure you wouldn't have done so in deliberate ignorance.
 
Dear Joe,

As you posted this within a minute of my last response, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt - as I'm sure you wouldn't have done so in deliberate ignorance.

Your last response didn't actually answer any of the original questions posed to you and you have posted absolutely nothing to support

a) your statement that the passage supports the idea that Picard is a christian

b) your statement that the passage support the idea that Picard is a specific type of christian (Catholic).

If you want to have a discussion, you need to respond honestly - will you now explain what specifically in the passage supports a and/or b.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and hope that the next post will answer both of those questions rather than simply being an attempt to evade the question.
 
I don't see how you can take anything from that quote to say that a) he was or is a christian or b) that he was or is a catholic. You seem to doing a lot of reaching.

The 'faith' Picard might have may be in the Federation or in Humanities ability to overcome.

I do think its quite clear that the passage quoted from Losing the Peace indicates that JLP understands the imporantance of faith (in religious or humanist terms). I don't believe the faith is mentioned in reference to the Federation. It would be odd for him to be referring to a religious member of his crew, her faith in relogious terms, and then talk about his own faith in the Federation. Its not a logical leap.

Also, while it is not clear what "faith" JLP is referring to, he seems to be someone who doesn't necessarily believe in the religious/church-going aspect of faith, but in a more spiritual way without the religious obervations.

All that said, while the passage does not in any way point to what "faith" JLP may sympathize with more than others, since he is from LaBarre France, one "could" infer his parents where Christian in some fasshion. Assuming, the churches don't get destroyed by TNG era, there are a fair number of churches/cathedrals in modern day LaBarre.

However, this is not based on anything in lit b/c I highly doubt that S&S would explicitly confirm any many cast human's religion. However, what readers imply themselves is all part of the reading experience whether implying religion, other motivations, etc. isn't it? Also, while I do not share the emphatic view that this passage is clear one way or other, how one readers implies what is meant vs. what someone else believes is still in the eye of the beholder. The individual here seems to be saying that a "case can be made for...." etc., etc., and he is right as are critics. However, what isn't in dispute is that the passage does note explicitly indicate that JLP is referring to Christianity, Catholicism, humanism, etc.

In addition, here are some religious stats from modern day France (by their government I think). Again, naturally, the future is not written in stone, and we don't know how the various Earth religions evolved in the TNG era, but I can't imagine France would have changed that much, but if it did, the country today has a healthy majority of Christians (predominatly Catholic).

The 2003 CIA World Factbook lists the religion of France as:
  • Roman Catholic 83-88%,
  • Protestant 2%,
  • Jewish 1%,
  • Muslim (North African workers) 5-10%, unaffiliated 4%
It is unclear where these numbers come from.


However, in a 2003 poll 41% said that the existence of God was "excluded" or "unlikely". 33% declared that "atheist" described them rather or very well, and 51% for "Christian".

When questioned about their religion, 62% answered Roman Catholic, 6% Muslim, 2% Protestant, 1% Jewish, 2% "other religions" (except for Orthodox or Buddhist, which were negligible), 26% "no religion" and 1% declined to answer.

The discrepancy between the number of "atheists" (41%) and the number of with "no religion" (26%) may be attributed to people who feel culturally close to a religion, follow its moral values and traditions, but hardly believe in God.

All that said, this is just a chat amongst fans. The passage used is clearly vague, but there may some reasons to "assume" something JLP's religious upbringing based on what we know of his country/town of birth (using modernin information, but infering about the future).
 
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Guys - get a grip - what I posted is a quote from Leisner's book Losing the Peace. I gave my take on it and my extrapolation of it in the fictional Picard timeline.

What the hell are you guys doing?
Disagreeing, given the evidences presented and the weakness of your reasoning (Picard generally spoke of the importance of "faith" when commenting other people's religion. Picard is from a country that centuries ago was mostly Catholic. Ergo, Picard is a Catholic.) It doesn't compute. Given your logic, you could claim that I'm a devoted believer in the ancient Etruscan religion.

So far, it seems like you are venting about your present day concerns. I don't wish to engage you on such and I don't think it's fair that you expect me to on this thread.
We are not "venting", we are questioning your suppositions. Playing the persecution card is not going to help your case.

I'm asking you to take this quote and IMAGINE yourselves in the future and work with it with the understanding that we are in a TNG relaunch in the ST Treklit thread.
I can do that easily, and nothing tells me that Picard must be a Catholic given the "evidences" you present.

Religion ain't as easily dismissed as it once was - so what is one to make of Leisner's quote when it comes to Picard.
That just makes no sense.

I've provided evidence that insofar as relaunch ST:TNG treklit is concerned, Picard is a believer. I think he's a catholic but that's neither here nor there.
Actually, you provided next to nothing, except your own suppositions.

You may not agree but that now puts the onus on you.
I believe, since it's you making the claim, it's on you to prove it.
 
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