Christian faith in TrekLit?

[JRoss]

As to the Mecca thing. The Ka'aba is the site of a meteor strike. I imagine that some Muslims would then posit a Ka'aba on every world struck by a meteor; perhaps the first site visited by an imam on each world.

 

[JRoss]

Jesus died for humans, if aliens did exist, who is to say that they would have fallen into sin?

 

[justcorbly]

Interesting how Trek seldom discusses or portrays organized religion and even spirituality on Earth in the 23rd and 24th centuries, while many other cultures of at least equal technological capabilities are portrayed as being deeply spiritual or religious.

 

[Smellincoffee]

Interesting how Trek seldom discusses or portrays organized religion and even spirituality on Earth in the 23rd and 24th centuries, while many other cultures of at least equal technological capabilities are portrayed as being deeply spiritual or religious.

If they tried to discuss human religion directly, they'd open up a barrel full of contentiousness.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Jake should have turned around and said "Fake tolerance is more patronizing than an honest view - Religion is stupid, that's my view, why aren't you tolerant of it?" Then for good measure, he should have poked Sisko in the chest...

There's a simple answer to that: Because you are presenting your view in a belligerent manner. If you keep that up, then you have no right to complain when people engage in belligerent proselytizing with you.

 

[Destructor]

Interesting how Trek seldom discusses or portrays organized religion and even spirituality on Earth in the 23rd and 24th centuries, while many other cultures of at least equal technological capabilities are portrayed as being deeply spiritual or religious.

If they tried to discuss human religion directly, they'd open up a barrel full of contentiousness.

And it's frequently stated, onscreen and off, that humans had outgrown religion by the 23rd century.

 

[Janos]

And it's frequently stated, onscreen and off, that humans had outgrown religion by the 23rd century.

Really? So is it understood then in Roddenberry's ST world of acceptance and tolerance, what you're saying is that it is established canon that (my words)... humans are enlightened and not hobbled by faith/religion, whereas all these primative aliens, even Vulcans, still cling to faith/religion. That does NOT sound like any Star Trek TV or ST book I have read at all.

If your interpretation is correct, that would make humans in ST era seem arrogant, self-centred and elitist. Humans would seem to be "tolerating" lesser species as partners in the Federation & UFP.... Oy! And, conversely, if that was the view of humans I would say Earth should be kicked out of the UFP that it had a hand in creating.

This is not a comment on what view is right or wrong, but how humans in the ST era percieve other species. I never seemed like they look down on species that had faith/religion/whathaveyou.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Well, it at least seemed to be the view of Jean-Luc Picard.

 

[ST-One]

And it's frequently stated, onscreen and off, that humans had outgrown religion by the 23rd century.

Really? So, in Roddenberry's ST world of acceptance and tolerance, what you're saying is that it is established canon that... humans are enlightened and not hobbled by faith/religion, whereas all these primative aliens, even Vulcans, still cling to faith/religion. That does NOT sound like any Star Trek TV or ST book I have read at all.

If you're right, that would make humans in ST era seem arrogant, self-centred and elitist. Humans would seem to be "tolerating" lesser species as partners in the Federation & UFP.... Oy! And, conversely, if that was the view of humans I would say Earth should be kicked out of the UFP that it had a hand in creating.

Then, I guess, you'll have to watch Trek again.

It, btw, says a lot about you that you see a tolerant atheistic view of the universe as "arrogant, self-centred and elitist".
Especially when that view-point isn't imposed on anyone.

 

[Janos]

And it's frequently stated, onscreen and off, that humans had outgrown religion by the 23rd century.

Then, I guess, you'll have to watch Trek again.

It, btw, says a lot about you that you see a tolerant atheistic view of the universe as "arrogant, self-centred and elitist".

Especially when that view-point isn't imposed on anyone.

Please go back and see what I underlined. My comment was really about the wording "outgrown" religion. That is a bit of a charged way of framing the topic or summarizing the view of the Fed. It is not a comment on the poster, just the topic he added to the mix.

You'll also note that I did not talk about you or anyone's personal views on religion/faith. So, I don't think its fair to call me out the way you did. I have never expressed my own personal views on what faith/religions, if any, I follow. It's not relevant. So, I don't think its good forum etiquette to type something like "it says a lot about you" (a post (your post) when you didn't fully understand my post on Star Trek (not anyone's personal faith, whathaveyou).

What shows/episodes should I watch where Picard or any Captain in ST says humans outgrew faith/religion and, by extension, that humans are more enlightened than others aliens?

I don't have an issue with people of who have faith, religion, are agnostic or athiest. Some shorter posts can infer things that may not be intended, for sure. I was responding to how I interpreted the meaning of the post.

 

[Janos]

Well, it at least seemed to be the view of Jean-Luc Picard.

Oh. Ok. I don't recall Picard says all other aliens with faith are lesser beings.... or inferring human has evolved past religion. Maybe I missed that wording in an episode. I know he's spiritual and not religious, but I can't imagine he'd ever infer/say that Vulcans or other beings who still have religion are lesser members of the UFP.

Is it more accurate that Picard said that human outgrew religious differences or squabbling over religious differences? Not that they outgrew religion. Again, I'm not sure of where the comment on outgrowing religion came from in canon. Just curious.

 

[ST-One]

What shows/episodes should I watch where Picard or any Captain in ST says that humans are more enlightened than others aliens b/c humans outgrew faith/religion?

You are, again, putting words into peoples' mouths; Destructor never said anything about humans being "more enlightened".
Religion doesn't play a role for most of the human characters in Star Trek - Earth's societies are a lot more atheistic in Trek than in reality.

 

[Janos]

What shows/episodes should I watch where Picard or any Captain in ST says that humans are more enlightened than others aliens b/c humans outgrew faith/religion?

You are, again, putting words into peoples' mouths; Destructor never said anything about humans being "more enlightened".
Religion doesn't play a role for most of the human characters in Star Trek - Earth's societies are a lot more atheistic in Trek than in reality.

These are always charged topics. What I would say is that I didn't put words in anyone's mouth. All I was going by was the framing out "outgrown" religion. It wasn't a comment on the poster, but their belief is on the landscape re: human religion in Trek. The word "outgrow" has clear meaning. I don't doubt that due to Rodenberry's athiesm that human religions are alluded in few instances to, but none dominate in the st eras for sure. There are some interesting points here on memory alpha/beta: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Human_religion (there's a lot of interesting stuff there that I still need finish going through; but there are many human religion nods implicit and explicit in st)

If I recall tng era Trek, didn't Picard say that human outgrew religious differences or squabbling over religious differences? Not that they outgrew religion.

I don't have any issue with the views of anyone here. I was talking about ST era and made no personalized comments, like were directed to me. In any event, I don't think its a large issue. No one's opinion, yours or mine, is right when it comes to st. The beauty is that we get to have respectful (hopefully) non-personalized dialogue here on ST.

 

[Thrawn]

From "Who Watches The Watchers", season 3:

RIKER: And are you saying that this belief will eventually become a religion?
BARRON: It's inevitable. And without guidance, that religion could degenerate into inquisitions, holy wars, chaos.
PICARD: Horrifying. Doctor Barron, your report describes how rational these people are. Millennia ago, they abandoned their belief in the supernatural. Now you are asking me to sabotage that achievement, to send them back into the Dark Ages of superstition and ignorance and fear? No! We will find some way to undo the damage we've caused. Number One, tell me about this group's leader.

Picard seems to conflate any belief in the supernatural, which would necessarily include any form of religion, with "superstition, ignorance, and fear", and the abandonment of any such belief being a positive step.

Given the context, you can probably fudge that a little, but I'd be willing to bet that what I wrote is pretty close to the authorial intent there. (Not that that necessarily matters etc etc, I know.)

 

[Janos]

Interesting. I still don't see how that particular quote supports that Earth has outgrown religion. I see that quote relating specifically about those aliens. BTW, did they explain in that episode what the superstitions those beings had?

In terms of the broader topic, this site has interesting info.

In a Q&A session executive producer Brannon Braga was asked whether there was supposed to be a deity in the stories that he wrote. He said:

"No, there was no consideration in giving humans, talking about God, or talking about those types of things. We wanted to avoid it to be quite frank. But we did very often explore theology through alien characters. Which frankly is much more interesting anyway. Whether it was the Bajorans and their religion or the Borg and their religion. They had the religion of perfection. That, I think, was more interesting. We want to keep Star Trek secular. The human facet of Star Trek secular." (Brannon Braga, transcript from his former website)

I do believe that many core characters in Star Trek believe in science over faith. ST captain are explorers afterall. I imagine they're supposed to be somewhat open-minded. However, I still don't believe there are references that emphatical state that Earth in the ST era has zero/no religions active. Braga's quote is interesting in terms of the latter part of the TNG era shows. By keeping the image of a secular Earth, writers don't have to get into the various religions that exist now and see what still exists in the future. I believe ST era Earth probably is like today with athiests, agnostics, the spiritual, the faithful, the religious, etc. I do think everything I've read and watched about ST does allude to Earth being evolved a bit where religious differences don't lead to violence the way in some cases it has in history or in parts of the world today.

Some other interesting evidence of faith in ST from the site I linked to above:

In the wedding chapel on the Enterprise we can see a sort of altar and some religious symbols, among the a cross (TOS: "Balance of Terror").

Bridge officer Lt. Rhada is wearing a bindi, a traditional Hindu symbol, on her forehead (TOS: "That Which Survives").

Data mentions a Hindu Festival of Lights in his log entry. So this religion, or at least its rituals, still seems to exist (TNG: "Data's Day").

Kasidy says she would like to have a priest to perform the wedding ceremony (DS9: "Penumbra").

Dr. Phlox says he has been to a Tibetan monastery and that he has attended a mass at St. Peter's Square. This is the most definite statement that religion still plays a role, at least in the 22nd century (ENT: "Cold Front").

There are other examples too. All I'm trying to highlight is that we can not infer that Earth has no religion (has "outgrown" it) based on scant portrayals or opinions of certain Trek characters. This was an area that ST deliberately steered around, I think, and allowed viewers/readers to see what they wanted to or infer what they wished to about this aspect of ST era Earth. I believe ST tried to give the image that the exploration was outside of Earth and when there were references to Earth and potential faith/theology, the portrayals are inconclusive at best. We don't know what/how human religion/faith is in play or not in ST era Earth. Now, I haven't memorized all Trek TV or books, and if there are direct quotes to support that Earth has outgrown religion (in contrast to outgrowing religious differences) I really am open to reading them.

In the end, I'm still a huge Trek fan.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Then, I guess, you'll have to watch Trek again.

It, btw, says a lot about you that you see a tolerant atheistic view of the universe as "arrogant, self-centred and elitist".
Especially when that view-point isn't imposed on anyone.

There are two different types of atheistic views that I have observed. Some atheists are indeed quite tolerant, and have no problem with a "live and let live" philosophy. I don't have a beef with those who are able to treat others with dignity even when they disagree. Others, however, are just as fundamentalist as the worst religious fanatics, and fit all of those negative adjectives and can be just as destructive as a religious fanatic. I have a major problem with people who lord it over others, either verbally or physically.



And Janos--I saw Picard as associating abandoning of religious belief with becoming more enlightened, "evolved," and superior beings, on general principle.

I think that had the intent been for him to focus specifically on the Mintakan situation, he could have simply said that he had no right to use his power--intentionally or unintentionally--to trample on a choice made by the Mintakans themselves, and that they had the right to follow unimpeded. That simple statement would have made the point quite nicely, without making a sweeping generalization.

 

[Janos]

And Janos--I saw Picard as associating abandoning of religious belief with becoming more enlightened, "evolved," and superior beings, on general principle.

I think his characterization was left open enough for viewers to have that view (as well as others). Is there a quote somewhere where Picard directly says that kind of thing?

I do see Picard as an explorer/scientist/archeolgist as someone who likes things explained, but in his experiences he realizes "something" is out there. He's probably somewhere between an agnostic and athiest maybe.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think that if that's what the writers intended, then they did a poor job with "Who Watches the Watchers?". Which does happen sometimes.

 

[Captain Robert April]

In "Encounter At Farpoint", there's mention of "tribal god images"...

 

[Capt_Pickirk]

^ In 'Where silence has Lease' he talks about his own beliefs for a little bit. Can't remember what he says though