Ship sizes: ALL LIES! (big pics)

[Captain Robert April]

^ As it was, we were presented with the Giant Raspberry Jell-O Ball of Doom!!

 

[Dukhat]

But the practice of judging the validity of plot device is that of the amount of use along with the priority represented in the plot.

A plot device is a plot device, no matter how or how many times it's used.

So the Nexus and the Red matter are likely equally bad but Red matter would actually be worse as it is presented by a group of scientist dedicated to logic who apparently couldn't properly label it.

Or maybe nobody really thought it necessary to call it "nucleogenetic paralycalytic neodyfraxyl matter" because the viewing audience already had enough of that technobabble shit in Voyager and Enterprise.

The proper vague discription of Red Matter is Exotic Matter which is a type of Dark Matter...both descriptionis are vague because they've never been observed and exist only in theory or the most indirect observance. Once theory gives way to tangible testable and recreatable substance it would be given a proper descriptor like Soliton, or proton, or baryonic as a classification.

You've totally lost me here. Are you trying to impose scientific principles to a fictional substance?

^ As it was, we were presented with the Giant Raspberry Jell-O Ball of Doom!!

Well at least we got to see the Jell-O. What the hell does protomatter look like? Maybe like that "protoculture" energy source in Robotech that we never got to see either because it was totally made up for the Americanization of Macross?

 

[Saquist]

A plot device is a plot device, no matter how or how many times it's used.

A plot device has to be well incorporated and explain if it is to have a pivotable part in the plot. We use the word too loosely but some plot devices fit the description of Deus Ex machina which is usually a sudden and unexplained device that resolves the plot.

Or maybe nobody really thought it necessary to call it "nucleogenetic paralycalytic neodyfraxyl matter" because the viewing audience already had enough of that technobabble shit in Voyager and Enterprise.

(shrug, if thats what you want to believe)
Which would make the movie and it's dedication to science FLUFF worthy but not actually science fiction.

You've totally lost me here. Are you trying to impose scientific principles to a fictional substance?

Oh duh
It's Sci Fi. EXCUSE me ST09 was Sci Fantasy.

 

[Dukhat]

Whatever, dude. I think you're trying to make this film out to be something more that it was meant to be.

 

[Captain Robert April]

It's Sci Fi. EXCUSE me ST09 was Sci Fantasy.

Emphasis on the fantasy.

 

[ST-One]

With JJ, not only was there not an effort made, it seems that when an effort was made (coughcoughGeofferyMandelcoughcough), the person in question was immediately escorted off the studio lot. That's beyond not caring. That's showing an active disdain for anyone who's actually paying attention.

Bullshit.
Not matter how often you tell that tale, we simply do not know why Mandel was actually fired (and, no, Eaves doesn't know either - he was speculating back then).

How do you know? Are you the all knowing Trek expert? I think you need to get a grip.

How I know that we don't know?
Because Eaves is the only source we have for this Mandel-story and he removed his comments about it pretty fast from his blog and has never spoken about it since.

 

[ST-One]

Oh duh
It's Sci Fi. EXCUSE me ST09 was Sci Fantasy.

It's Sci Fi. EXCUSE me ST09 was Sci Fantasy.

Emphasis on the fantasy.

So a totally made-up, vaguely scientific-sounding name for the same fictional thing would have made a difference to you?

 

[Saquist]

Oh duh
It's Sci Fi. EXCUSE me ST09 was Sci Fantasy.

It's Sci Fi. EXCUSE me ST09 was Sci Fantasy.

Emphasis on the fantasy.

So a totally made-up, vaguely scientific-sounding name for the same fictional thing would have made a difference to you?

It definitely would have been one less thing to laugh at...

-To think that all that the special effect department could come up with is glossy paint is rather a downer.

-The crumby, made of playDO, Dr. "Evil" villian was the biggest downer. How stupid can you be to wait for 20 years for a vulcan and his ship when you could have been busy saving your planet. He was less convincing than a Bond Bad-guy. He dropped Spock off on a world with a Federation outpost, spared the Enterprise twice, spared Captain Pike and Spared Kirk, . What an IDIOT.

-Then the horrible 3 way contrivance of the Spock, Kirk and Scotty convention on "delta vega"

-Delta Vega hanging around the orbit of Vulcan and yet spared from the black hole of DOOM.

-The Deus Ex machine, "I've memorized a compex formula for Transwarp beaming just for such an occasion."

-The plot hole of "Communications are out because of the drill". Yet we're talking to Nero right now...

-Then all the captains abandoning their post was sort of irritating...

-and even though the Kobyashi Maru scenario was interesting it registered HIGH on my cringe dectector.

*shrug* It was fluff. I enjoyed it like I enjoyed Charlie's Angels. Some of the worse writing this side of Attack of the Clones. (and that's saying a lot)

 

[F. King Daniel]

I love the way all the arguments end with "It's a bad film anyway! Wahhh!" as if your opinion somehow helps your argument. Take your bitching and point-by-point complaints to the STXI forum.

TOS never explained how phasers, photon torpedoes or shields worked and it got along just fine. You don't need the underlying principles of something explained to you in order to see what it does and what the consequences for it's use are.

 

[Saquist]

I love the way all the arguments end with "It's a bad film anyway! Wahhh!" as if your opinion somehow helps your argument. Take your bitching and point-by-point complaints to the STXI forum.

-The itemization makes my argument.
-It is proper writing etiquette to give a summary and conclusion.
-Sounds like someone has a problems with the opinion of others that differ from their own. How petulant.

TOS never explained how phasers, photon torpedoes or shields worked and it got along just fine. You don't need the underlying principles of something explained to you in order to see what it does and what the consequences for it's use are.

-An argument so weak it needs a hostage to get out of the room alive. How dastardly.
-phasers are a contrivance and never played a scientific role in Trek TOS beyond roasting rocks and stunning people unconscious. Get over it.
-Star Trek09's Red matter contrivance was inconsistent, It first opened a time portal, then destroyed vulcan and then destroyed the Narada instead of sending it back in time as it did originally after detonating ALL of the supply. Makes about as much sense as Jar Jar Binks calling for a vote to give the Chancellor Emergency Powers when the Senate couldn't decide to give him the Emergency Powers themselves.

You're roasting here kiddo.
You're in over your head.
You're burning and drowning at the same time...

 

[ST-One]

Oh duh
It's Sci Fi. EXCUSE me ST09 was Sci Fantasy.

Emphasis on the fantasy.

So a totally made-up, vaguely scientific-sounding name for the same fictional thing would have made a difference to you?

It definitely would have been one less thing to laugh at...

-To think that all that the special effect department could come up with is glossy paint is rather a downer.

-The crumby, made of playDO, Dr. "Evil" villian was the biggest downer. How stupid can you be to wait for 20 years for a vulcan and his ship when you could have been busy saving your planet. He was less convincing than a Bond Bad-guy. He dropped Spock off on a world with a Federation outpost, spared the Enterprise twice, spared Captain Pike and Spared Kirk, . What an IDIOT.

-Then the horrible 3 way contrivance of the Spock, Kirk and Scotty convention on "delta vega"

-Delta Vega hanging around the orbit of Vulcan and yet spared from the black hole of DOOM.

-The Deus Ex machine, "I've memorized a compex formula for Transwarp beaming just for such an occasion."

-The plot hole of "Communications are out because of the drill". Yet we're talking to Nero right now...

-Then all the captains abandoning their post was sort of irritating...

-and even though the Kobyashi Maru scenario was interesting it registered HIGH on my cringe dectector.

*shrug* It was fluff. I enjoyed it like I enjoyed Charlie's Angels. Some of the worse writing this side of Attack of the Clones. (and that's saying a lot)

I love the way all the arguments end with "It's a bad film anyway! Wahhh!" as if your opinion somehow helps your argument. Take your bitching and point-by-point complaints to the STXI forum.

-The itemization makes my argument.
-It is proper writing etiquette to give a summary and conclusion.
-Sounds like someone has a problems with the opinion of others that differ from their own. How petulant.

TOS never explained how phasers, photon torpedoes or shields worked and it got along just fine. You don't need the underlying principles of something explained to you in order to see what it does and what the consequences for it's use are.

-An argument so weak it needs a hostage to get out of the room alive. How dastardly.
-phasers are a contrivance and never played a scientific role in Trek TOS beyond roasting rocks and stunning people unconscious. Get over it.
-Star Trek09's Red matter contrivance was inconsistent, It first opened a time portal, then destroyed vulcan and then destroyed the Narada instead of sending it back in time as it did originally after detonating ALL of the supply. Makes about as much sense as Jar Jar Binks calling for a vote to give the Chancellor Emergency Powers when the Senate couldn't decide to give him the Emergency Powers themselves.

You're roasting here kiddo.
You're in over your head.
You're burning and drowning at the same time...

Yeah... well...

 

[F. King Daniel]

-Sounds like someone has problems with opinions of others that differ from their own. How pertulant.

Not at all. Merely that your argument boils down to you calling foul on Red Matter while forgiving the equally nonsensical fantasy elements that Trek movies and episodes have been founded upon for decades. It renders your argument meaningless.

From Red Matter I got "unpredictable and dangerous" - and that's exactly what it was.

 

[Deckerd]

Science fiction is a subset of fantasy. I don't see how you can make a distinction between any versions of Trek, since they are all fantasy. Some science fiction is more grounded than Star Trek, like the film Moon for instance, but it's still fantasy.

 

[Vance]

Not at all. Merely that your argument boils down to you calling foul on Red Matter while forgiving the equally nonsensical fantasy elements that Trek movies and episodes have been founded upon for decades. It renders your argument meaningless.

"But TOS did it too! You have to hate TOS too if you don't like this thing about NuTrek!"

Seriously, that is your argument? Yes, TOS and its movies had its plot contrivances at times, and no one here disputes that. We pointed out that the plot of NuTrek relied far more heavily on its MaGuffin than the other movies, with the lone exception of the Nexus.

You won't see a lot of defense of Generations either.

So please stop taking criticism of NuTrek as a personal attack. No one here has kicked your puppy or slept with your wife. We disagree on a fucking movie.

Get over it.

 

[The Inquisitor]

I love the way all the arguments end with "It's a bad film anyway! Wahhh!" as if your opinion somehow helps your argument. Take your bitching and point-by-point complaints to the STXI forum.

-The itemization makes my argument.
-It is proper writing etiquette to give a summary and conclusion.
-Sounds like someone has a problems with the opinion of others that differ from their own. How petulant.

TOS never explained how phasers, photon torpedoes or shields worked and it got along just fine. You don't need the underlying principles of something explained to you in order to see what it does and what the consequences for it's use are.

-An argument so weak it needs a hostage to get out of the room alive. How dastardly.
-phasers are a contrivance and never played a scientific role in Trek TOS beyond roasting rocks and stunning people unconscious. Get over it.
-Star Trek09's Red matter contrivance was inconsistent, It first opened a time portal, then destroyed vulcan and then destroyed the Narada instead of sending it back in time as it did originally after detonating ALL of the supply. Makes about as much sense as Jar Jar Binks calling for a vote to give the Chancellor Emergency Powers when the Senate couldn't decide to give him the Emergency Powers themselves.

You're roasting here kiddo.
You're in over your head.
You're burning and drowning at the same time...

Beyond condecending, you really need to pull your head out of your ass.

 

[ST-One]

Not at all. Merely that your argument boils down to you calling foul on Red Matter while forgiving the equally nonsensical fantasy elements that Trek movies and episodes have been founded upon for decades. It renders your argument meaningless.

"But TOS did it too! You have to hate TOS too if you don't like this thing about NuTrek!"

Seriously, that is your argument? Yes, TOS and its movies had its plot contrivances at times, and no one here disputes that. We pointed out that the plot of NuTrek relied far more heavily on its MaGuffin than the other movies, with the lone exception of the Nexus.

You won't see a lot of defense of Generations either.

So please stop taking criticism of NuTrek as a personal attack. No one here has kicked your puppy or slept with your wife. We disagree on a fucking movie.

Get over it.

You come waltzing into this thread feeling all insulted because someone reinterpreted some figures you felt comfortable with... and you are telling someone else to get over it?

 

[Vance]

You come waltzing into this thread feeling all insulted because someone reinterpreted some figures you felt comfortable with... and you are telling someone else to get over it?

I objected to the sheer arrogance of the OP, as well as the extremely flawed methodology that he used. "I'm much more clever than anyone who's ever done this in the past 40 years, including the people who actually did the ships in the first place" isn't exactly an endeaering start.

But now I think it's time to ask for this thread to be locked. Thank you, NuTrek fans!

 

[The Inquisitor]

^ a major problem with these threads is that no-one can have a sensible debate about anything to do with NuTrek without someone who dislikes the film sticking the boot in. It's more than frustrating. Just because you disike a film doesn't mean every single aspect of it is shite, if fans of the film want to discuss it then that's up to them. This is just as much a fault of JJhaters as it is those who enjoy the new film.

 

[ST-One]

You come waltzing into this thread feeling all insulted because someone reinterpreted some figures you felt comfortable with... and you are telling someone else to get over it?

I objected to the sheer arrogance of the OP, as well as the extremely flawed methodology that he used. "I'm much more clever than anyone who's ever done this in the past 40 years, including the people who actually did the ships in the first place" isn't exactly an endeaering start.

But now I think it's time to ask for this thread to be locked. Thank you, NuTrek fans!

There, you did it again.

Instead of discussing the actual topic you, again, insulted the OP.

 

[F. King Daniel]

So please stop taking criticism of NuTrek as a personal attack.

I'm not taking anything as a personal attack, despite your efforts. Re-read the thread - you, Vance, are the reason this thread has become a childish old vs. new Trek thing, seemingly because I dared include the Kelvin and 2009 Enterprise among the points made in the OP. You're the one getting offended at (in the case of Excelsior) the blatant scaling mistakes and (in the case of Drexler's TOS cutaway) the blatant misdirection of Star Trek's official technical manuals and diagrams. Rick Sternbach came along and, far from being offended, he contributed several interesting points and offered insight into why DS9 was designed at one scale, given details indicating a larger scale and then filmed and CG'd by others with their own ideas.

From you we've gotten: "Herecy against doctrine!" rants and feeble attempts at put-downs.