Excelsior Intended to Replace Enterprise
- Thread starter Jeff Tube
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You'd put Kirk, Scott, McCoy, Saavik and David Marcus on the Excelsior while promoting Sulu to the command of the Enterprise with Uhura and Chekov serving as first and second officers.
As you can see... I had the same thoughts on alternate universe possibilities.
I HATED it when they blew up the Enterprise. I always blamed the writers ("Writer BASTARDS! You killed 'my' ship!!"). That ship went through a lot, right along with the crew (and Scotty could undoubtedly point out her various "scars" to prove it...). The Enterprise might be an inanimate object, but for me, it was just like another character. I spent a lot more time drawing it when I was a kid compared to how often I drew Kirk or Spock....
Like EEE, I always wondered about the scene with the destruction of the Enterprise, though. I think it was in "The Naked Time" that Kirk stated that if the Enterprise were to blow up, it would be be the brightest explosion seen in that part of space since a local star had gone supernova. Yet when the Enterprise "died", it was an explosion that only tore away part of the primary hull before it streaked across the skies of the Genesis planet. Where was the big bang?
Shouldn't the loss of antimatter containment have resulted in a HUGE explosion? Or maybe that happened offscreen as what remained of the Enterprise hit the ground.
Otherwise, the "destruction" seemed pretty incomplete. If the ship had been in deep space and not pulled down into the atmosphere of a planet, would there have been subsequent programmed explosions to finish the job?
Like EEE, I always wondered about the scene with the destruction of the Enterprise, though. I think it was in "The Naked Time" that Kirk stated that if the Enterprise were to blow up, it would be be the brightest explosion seen in that part of space since a local star had gone supernova. Yet when the Enterprise "died", it was an explosion that only tore away part of the primary hull before it streaked across the skies of the Genesis planet. Where was the big bang?
Shouldn't the loss of antimatter containment have resulted in a HUGE explosion? Or maybe that happened offscreen as what remained of the Enterprise hit the ground.
Otherwise, the "destruction" seemed pretty incomplete. If the ship had been in deep space and not pulled down into the atmosphere of a planet, would there have been subsequent programmed explosions to finish the job?
According to "Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise" there are several modes to the self destruct system - one involves the release of all the antimatter which will then react with the normal matter of the ship and result in a cataclysmic explosion. The other mode safely ejects the anitmatter before explosive charges in various locations around the ship are detonated. This mode being used where the situation precludes the total annihilation of the ship (and presumably everything in the vicinity) - Kirk knew he'd need to eventually commandeer the Bird of Prey somehow so he didn't want to blow up his only means of escape from the Genesis planet.
This was also my favorite period of DC comics' Trek.
@BillJ I would have Sulu as Captain with Checkov as his first officer and Uhura the communications officer/second officer. The rest of the ship would be staffed with new characters.
The point was NOT to kill off everyone, ya know.
But, as for the scene, my own thoughts aside, my older two girls cried when they saw it for the first time, and my youngest (in her cute 6 year old voice at the time) actually said "The Klingon Bastards must pay!", recounting Kirk's dialog.
Why? In The Original Series and The Motion Picture, Uhura actually outranked Chekov. Plus it would've been far more interesting to have a woman starship XO in 1984.
I would assume the destruct in III involved overloading the impulse engines as opposed to the antimatter containment like we've seen in later episodes/movies. Since it was pretty much the saucer section that blew up and the stardrive section fell to the planet (mostly) intact. Compare that to Generations where the stardrive blew up and the saucer was left behind.
It would make sense to have multiple destruct options: if some other part of the ship was occupied by enemy forces that wouldn't allow you to do it the "normal" way you could move to plan B. Or like somebody else said, if you're trying to avoid collateral damage as much as possible.
To be sure, the ship seemed to blow up only in places that contained little or no known machinery... The bridge went first, then the forward accommodation/lab spaces, but both impulse and warp engines were intact and so was the main engineering area when the explosions finally ceased.
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tsfshd/tsfshd1293.jpg
Perhaps the ship had already been hurt so badly that the self-destruct systems failed?
OTOH, if there are multiple destruct options, then Kirk would probably have selected the one that would blow up nothing but the location where the Klingon boarding crew was. He wasn't interested in denying the ship's use from the enemy, after all, but only in reducing the ranks of the enemy. Perhaps the system still failed, but in the other direction - it blew up too much of the ship!
If Kirk's intention was to blow up both ships yet not hurt the planet below, the system certainly failed - Kruge's BoP was never in any danger.
Timo Saloniemi
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tsfshd/tsfshd1293.jpg
Perhaps the ship had already been hurt so badly that the self-destruct systems failed?
OTOH, if there are multiple destruct options, then Kirk would probably have selected the one that would blow up nothing but the location where the Klingon boarding crew was. He wasn't interested in denying the ship's use from the enemy, after all, but only in reducing the ranks of the enemy. Perhaps the system still failed, but in the other direction - it blew up too much of the ship!
If Kirk's intention was to blow up both ships yet not hurt the planet below, the system certainly failed - Kruge's BoP was never in any danger.
Timo Saloniemi
I doubt it was seeing as he would probably want the BoP around so he could escape from the planet.
Problem is that Star Trek has never been consistent when it's shown the destruction of ships through self destruction and loss of containment.
It seems like every other post in this thread has some sort of factual error.
Mistaking STII for STIII, mistaking STIII for STIV, Mistaking the refit Enterprise for the Enterprise-A...
I have to wonder if it isn't intentional.
Mistaking STII for STIII, mistaking STIII for STIV, Mistaking the refit Enterprise for the Enterprise-A...
I have to wonder if it isn't intentional.
If you look at the scene where the Enterprise begins to explode, you will note that the BoP can be seen beginning to move off.
It's reasonable to assume that Kruge was moving away to ensure that the BoP could navigate itself out of bother if the explosion was likely to be bigger than a mere scuttling.
The Enterprise was able to be scuttled in a number of ways, that much is clear in Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, and Kirk needed the BoP to make good his departure from the Genesis planet.
He did what he had to do to ensure his crew's survival.
The loss of his friend Spock, his son, then his career and now his ship, was clear to see in the film as a series of snowballing events and when you consider this and examine the way Kirk was written in ST3 as a tactician and warrior, the ruthlessness of the man to overcome and win really stands out.
It's my favorite examination of the Kirk character alongside the last 20 minutes of TWOK.
The Klingon ambassador, in TVH, uses the scuttling of his ship to kill a Klingon boarding party as evidence of an aggressive maverick.
It's reasonable to assume that Kruge was moving away to ensure that the BoP could navigate itself out of bother if the explosion was likely to be bigger than a mere scuttling.
The Enterprise was able to be scuttled in a number of ways, that much is clear in Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, and Kirk needed the BoP to make good his departure from the Genesis planet.
He did what he had to do to ensure his crew's survival.
The loss of his friend Spock, his son, then his career and now his ship, was clear to see in the film as a series of snowballing events and when you consider this and examine the way Kirk was written in ST3 as a tactician and warrior, the ruthlessness of the man to overcome and win really stands out.
It's my favorite examination of the Kirk character alongside the last 20 minutes of TWOK.
The Klingon ambassador, in TVH, uses the scuttling of his ship to kill a Klingon boarding party as evidence of an aggressive maverick.
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Even McCoy knew the importance of a ship, stating of the new Enterprise in the TNG pilot, (best I recall) "You treat her like a lady, and she'll always bring you home.". He didn't say, "If you break her, you can always get another one. Doesn't matter which -- they're all the same. Who gives a fuck.".
Though it'd still be true, if you ask me. I've never understood the whole "ship is a character" mentality from a fan's perspective. I understand liking or really loving a ship design, but ultimately what does it matter? You can always get a new Constitution/Excelsior/Ambassador/Galaxy/Sovereign/etc. Even in TOS there were other Constitutions. I can even get getting attached to the ship our heroes are on, to a point and even that it kinda sucks seeing that ship go down. But another character? Not remotely close. I can get it from a character's perspective since that ship would mean a lot to its captain and others, I just don't get it from the outside.
^ You must not have watched "Firefly" then where it has been highly acknowledged by the fandom and Joss Whedon that the ship it's self is another character.
I seem to recall a barrage of complaints in the ST newszines of the day, in "Starlog", and in the DC Comics' lettercol. Although the SPFX guys explained in many interviews that the TMP model was extremely heavy, difficult to mount without wobbles, difficult to light, almost impossible to replace blown internal lights, difficult to stop bluescreen reflections, restricted by shooting angles, etc., many fans took to calling the lighter, more maneuverable, sturdier Excelsior model "the pregnant guppy".
With so much antagonism towards the Excelsior after ST III, it obviously inspired the scene at the end of ST IV, and the producers were fairly reassured that Enterprise-A resolution would be very welcomed.
So for the FX guys, blowing up the Enterprise model might of been a very cathartic experience
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