Starships of the 2230's

[Cicero]

The Kelvin, as shown, doesn't fit the TOS timeline as shown, because it would necessarily be larger than one of the largest ships in the fleet. A "heavy cruiser" is one of the biggest things any fleet has, short of "Battleship" and "Carrier".

While that's true, it ignores the scope of the difference in size between a heavy cruiser and a battleship or carrier. The U.S. Navy's most modern heavy cruiser type (classified as a battlecruiser under some international systems) is the Ticonderoga class, which is 173 m long and displaces 9,600 tons. The Nimitz class aircraft carrier, which is contemporary to the Ticonderoga class, is 333 m long and displaces more than 100,000 tons.

The 40-year old Iowa class battleships that served alongside the Ticonderoga class were 271 m long and displaced 58,000 tons. (The Montana class design that succeeded them early in WWII, but which was canceled to free yard space, was 281 m long and displaced 71,000 tons.)

Heavy cruisers are large ships when compared to smaller types, but are far smaller than battleships and carriers.

 

[Vance]

While that's true, it ignores the scope of the difference in size between a heavy cruiser and a battleship or carrier.

As I said, though, we're talking "heavy cruiser". By definition the only things after that are battleships and carriers. (And possibly a type of Battlecruiser depending on how you parse the nomenclature). Seriously, what's left between them, or after them?

So if the NCC-1701 is a heavy cruiser, then what the hell would a 'surveyor' NCC-0514 that's several times its size supposed to be? This is to say nothing of an 'old cruiser' that has a diameter in one screenshot measured in miles.

 

[sojourner]

The 40-year old Iowa class

Dammit, did a slip into one of those aforementioned alternate time lines? I could swear WW2 took place in the '40s, not the '70s.

 

[F. King Daniel]

This is to say nothing of an 'old cruiser' that has a diameter in one screenshot measured in miles.

It's called dramatic licence. Were you this annoyed when it happened in Star Trek's III and IV, or Deep Space Nine? Or did the huge Bird of Prey decloaking over the little freighter, and the enourmous Jem'Hadar super-battleships in orbit of Cardassia at the end of DS9 actually add to the impact of the moment?

 

[Dukhat]

This is to say nothing of an 'old cruiser' that has a diameter in one screenshot measured in miles.

It's called dramatic licence. Were you this annoyed when it happened in Star Trek's III and IV, or Deep Space Nine? Or did the huge Bird of Prey decloaking over the little freighter, and the enourmous Jem'Hadar super-battleships in orbit of Cardassia at the end of DS9 actually add to the impact of the moment?

You forgot the gigantic Birds of Prey decloaking above the D'Deridex Romulan warbirds in TNG.

 

[Cicero]

The 40-year old Iowa class

Dammit, did a slip into one of those aforementioned alternate time lines? I could swear WW2 took place in the '40s, not the '70s.

The Iowas were 40 years old when the Ticonderogas entered service.

While that's true, it ignores the scope of the difference in size between a heavy cruiser and a battleship or carrier.

As I said, though, we're talking "heavy cruiser". By definition the only things after that are battleships and carriers. (And possibly a type of Battlecruiser depending on how you parse the nomenclature). Seriously, what's left between them, or after them?

Among primary combatants, essentially* nothing is between them, but the distance that separates them is significant. It's like saying that Earth is the next biggest planet after the gas giants (if not quite to that scale); while true, the statement means much less than it seems it does.

Other ship types, though, are sometimes larger than heavy cruisers. The Sacramento class fast combat support ship (a combination oiler, ammunition ship, and refrigerator ship), for instance, which slightly predates the Ticonderoga class, is 242 m long and displaces 53,000 tons. Other modern auxiliaries are also rather large, such as the Lewis and Clark class dry cargo ship, which is 210 m long and displaces 40,300 tons.

Auxiliary ships of various types actually represent the bulk of current large-displacement American ships. We have dozens, with displacements ranging from 20,000 tons to more than 50,000 tons

*Technically, battlecruisers, light carriers, and escort carriers are longer and displace more than heavy cruisers.

So if the NCC-1701 is a heavy cruiser, then what the hell would a 'surveyor' NCC-0514 that's several times its size supposed to be? This is to say nothing of an 'old cruiser' that has a diameter in one screenshot measured in miles.

The Kelvin isn't identified as a survey ship in the film. Nor is the Mayflower (which I don't think is nearly so large as is often suggested; its saucer is somewhat smaller than the Enterprise's by my calculations - I could be wrong, though) identified as a cruiser. The Mayflower may be an older design of battleship/dreadnought (whatever type the new Enterprise represents), and the Kelvin may be some kind of battlecruiser - or even a battleship. Or the Kelvin may fill some other role we haven't seen on Star Trek. Perhaps its a carrier, a mobile repair ship, a fleet support vessel, etc. Maybe it really is a survey ship, but is designed to survey entire planets in detail, so is quite large, carrying many shuttles, laboratories, heavy sensor platforms, etc.

 

[Vance]

It's called dramatic licence. Were you this annoyed when it happened in Star Trek's III and IV, or Deep Space Nine? Or did the huge Bird of Prey decloaking over the little freighter, and the enourmous Jem'Hadar super-battleships in orbit of Cardassia at the end of DS9 actually add to the impact of the moment?

Not really, but there wasn't a cadre of people who wanted to beat each other senseless on the exacting detail of every VFX shot as it it was real. Seriously, have you checked the rest of the thread, your own comments included?

You can't bitch at me with 'dramatic license' if you're out there pixel-measuring the exacting measures to make canon declarations, though. :P

 

[Redshirt214]

The Kelvin, from evidence in movie, would seem to fit the " Light Cruiser" ideal best. It is, indeed, much like the Reliant : A formidable, if less powerful than Enterprise, ship, serving as a science ship in starfleet. Any size discrepencies between her and Enterprise can be explained away through the bulkiness of the Pre-2265 era ships. Just compare the Enterprise in " The Cage" to the series version.
Anyhow, if I were a TOS admiral, I'd definitely want Kelvin era ships, they would be great at puting up some serious flak!

 

[Vance]

Among primary combatants, essentially* nothing is between them, but the distance that separates them is significant. It's like saying that Earth is the next biggest planet after the gas giants (if not quite to that scale); while true, the statement means much less than it seems it does.

I get the point, it's just that there isn't a lot otherwise between other than spec-mission vessels or sub-carriers, etc. If we keep to TOS nomenclature, we're struggling to ship-types after the heavy cruiser / battlecruiser.

In truth, there could be barge-ships, etc, much larger than the Enterprise, but the Kelvin (et al) appear to be frontier combatants.

The Kelvin isn't identified as a survey ship in the film. Nor is the Mayflower (which I don't think is nearly so large as is often suggested; its saucer is somewhat smaller than the Enterprise's by my calculations - I could be wrong, though) identified as a cruiser.

The film skirts the tech statements, but I'm going on supplemental materials here (which, as I've mentioned elsewhere, has major problems on its own). The Kelvin's size, is we're keeping to the comparison with TOS, is nearly gargantuan.

And since the Excelsior is treated as a 'fucking huge ship' in the 2270s, accepting the Kelvin as is is problematic. Unless everyoen forgot about the 2230s.

The Mayflower may be an older design of battleship/dreadnought (whatever type the new Enterprise represents), and the Kelvin may be some kind of battlecruiser - or even a battleship.

The Mayflower has the problem of some insanely wonky VFX composition. It's listed as a frigate of all things... but I couldn't begin to tell you it's tech layout and how it should work.

 

[blssdwlf]

Yeah, totally... but only when you completely ignore the Space Office Complex, the Airtram, the TravelPod, Epsilon IX, the tram-station of frigging Starfleet Headquarters.

Keep in mind that TOS never went to Earth except when going back in time. For all we know, Earth looked like that prior to TMP and the Starbases "out there" were behind in getting upgrades and new paint

Then Dr. Daystrom must have used some outdated-looking parts to build his M-5...

Dr. Marcus must also source from the same vendor...

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x24/The_Ultimate_Computer_150.JPG

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twok/ch5/twok0255.jpg

 

[Crazy Eddie]

While that's true, it ignores the scope of the difference in size between a heavy cruiser and a battleship or carrier.

As I said, though, we're talking "heavy cruiser". By definition the only things after that are battleships and carriers.

By definition?

Hardly. Intermediate classes can exist if you want them and have existed in the past. Witness, for example, the sometimes murky distinction between "heavy cruiser" and "battlecruiser," also aviation cruisers, pocket battleships, light carriers, fleet carriers, supercarriers, arsenal ships, etc. And half of these do not in and of themselves define a specific size range.

In point of fact, even the definition of the term "cruiser" was changed during the Cold War to include things that under traditional definitions were NOT cruisers, and only for the purpose of making politicians feel better about their standing compared to the Soviet Union (the infamous "cruiser gap" thing).

Seriously, what's left between them, or after them?

Seriously, ANYTHING YOU WANT THERE TO BE.

Something else to consider is that a great many sci-fi classification schemes (Babylon 5, Star Wars, Colony Wars, Macross, Starblazers, etc) generally present "cruiser" as being a smaller and faster type of vessel compared to the much larger, slower, more heavily armed destroyer. Since we have never seen a starship canonically referred to as a destroyer, it's possible that Trek uses the more common space opera classification system and "heavy cruisers" is the largest class of fast/versatile starship below the hulking gun-heavy destroyers.

So if the NCC-1701 is a heavy cruiser, then what the hell would a 'surveyor' NCC-0514 that's several times its size supposed to be?

Have you given much thought to the basic logistics involved in conducting a geological/archeological/ecological survey of AN ENTIRE PLANET? That's not something you're going to accomplish with twelve redshirts and a science officer. Surveyors wouldn't have to be fast (single nacelle) nor would they require much offensive armament (no torpedoes). They WOULD require a huge number of specialists and/or scientists to complete the mission, plus a larger-than-normal completement of shuttlecraft (ahem!). That would make "surveyor" the starship equivalent of "Aircraft Carrier."

OTOH, what are the canonical references that indicate Kelvin is actually called a "Surveyor"? It is never called such in dialog; for all we know, Starfleet's designation is "base ship."

This is to say nothing of an 'old cruiser' that has a diameter in one screenshot measured in miles.

That's straining credibility even for you, Vance.

And since the Excelsior is treated as a 'fucking huge ship' in the 2270s, accepting the Kelvin as is is problematic. Unless everyoen forgot about the 2230s.

Actually, Excelsior is treated as a 'fucking huge ship' in the 2290s, and then only by Doctor McCoy, who clearly hadn't been paying attention until then. Nobody seemed to care about its size when the Enterprise crew first encountered it twenty years earlier; Scotty reacted with pure derision and Kirk with playful indifference.

Perhaps Scotty was a Kelvin fan?

 

[Vance]

Hardly. Intermediate classes can exist if you want them and have existed in the past.

Already adressed. Most ships larger than heavy cruiers are mis-spec one-offs. This isn't to say that the Federation wouldn't have them, but the sheer size of the Kelvin, much less the Enterprise when compared to TOS strains a credible argument.

Something else to consider is that a great many sci-fi classification schemes (Babylon 5, Star Wars, Colony Wars, Macross, Starblazers, etc) generally present "cruiser" as being a smaller and faster type of vessel compared to the much larger, slower, more heavily armed destroyer.

Macross has 'destroyers' in the US Navy Sense, for sure. I Wouldn't bother citing Star Wars for much, though... I mean, really. But remember that TOS was deliberately modelled after the US Navy circa 1960. More than that, Roddenberry himself put forward the "Destroyer" type ship as a smaller vessel (Making of Star Trek) which lead to the Saladin design in the first place.

Besides, I think it's a failed argument to say that the TOS Enterprise, which was listed as a very beautiful lady and we love her was one of the Starfleet's smallest and less capable combatants.

Have you given much thought to the basic logistics involved in conducting a geological/archeological/ecological survey of AN ENTIRE PLANET?

In TOS, they were doing it with smaller ships and crews of 20. If you're going to argue that the Kelvin fits with TOS (and I'm not arguing that point), then you have to accept TOS's conventions.

OTOH, what are the canonical references that indicate Kelvin is actually called a "Surveyor"? It is never called such in dialog; for all we know, Starfleet's designation is "base ship."

Already addressed.

Actually, Excelsior is treated as a 'fucking huge ship' in the 2290s, and then only by Doctor McCoy, who clearly hadn't been paying attention until then. Nobody seemed to care about its size when the Enterprise crew first encountered it twenty years earlier; Scotty reacted with pure derision and Kirk with playful indifference.

2280s, checking it again. And Uhura has the first 'Would you look at THAT' reaction in the Excelsior's reveal. Remember, she was designed to be big and daunting for the audience to deliberately not like her (taking further with some clever and subtle bridge-crew casting). Most the supplemental material of the time was explicit about her being the biggest ship in the field as well. (FASA outright called it a battleship!)

Like I said, if you want to accept the Kelvin as TOS, you have to accept TOS's conventions, which makes this all problematic. If you see NuTrek as "What would happen if all the time-resets made Star Trek a sequel to Enterprise", then the Kelvin is just fine as a design... but then TOS itself didn't happen, which is what the movie did anyway...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Hardly. Intermediate classes can exist if you want them and have existed in the past.

Already adressed. Most ships larger than heavy cruiers are mis-spec one-offs.

I wouldn't call Kirov and Kiev "one-offs" exactly... as for "mis-spec" it depends on what that term (if anything) means.

This isn't to say that the Federation wouldn't have them, but the sheer size of the Kelvin, much less the Enterprise when compared to TOS strains a credible argument.

Why? The mere size of an Iowa class battleship doesn't strain a credible argument compared to, say, a Spruance class destroyer. And the TOS Enterprise was NEVER referred to as a battleship (interestingly, Enterprise-D was in an alternate reality).

Macross has 'destroyers' in the US Navy Sense, for sure.

Not where the Zentraedi are concerned, no.

But remember that TOS was deliberately modelled after the US Navy circa 1960.

Which is fortunate, because if they had modelled it after the Navy circa 1970, the "heavy cruiser" Enterprise would have been a runabout.

Besides, I think it's a failed argument to say that the TOS Enterprise, which was listed as a very beautiful lady and we love her was one of the Starfleet's smallest and less capable combatants.

How is that a failed argument? A beautiful motorcycle is still a small vehicle; the fact that you love it doesn't turn it into a pickup truck.

Anyway, you're resorting to strawmen again for some reason. Heavy cruisers are not the smallest or least capable combatants of any fleet, but by the same token they are FAR from the largest OR most capable. Rodenberry and Jeffries implied many things about the Enterprise but "largest ship in the fleet" wasn't one of them.

In TOS, they were doing it with smaller ships and crews of 20.

In TOS they were surveying landing sites the size of football fields and examining very specific targets for very specific reasons. Between the sum of all visited planets in the entire run of TOS, Enterprise' crew physically covered less ground than the six Apollo missions combined.

If you're going to argue that the Kelvin fits with TOS (and I'm not arguing that point), then you have to accept TOS's conventions.

I don't have to accept them, I just have to acknowledge them. There's no basis to claim that every starship of every class in the entire fleet must operate exactly the same way regardless of their capabilities; this isn't even true of naval vessels (your favorite comparison

Actually, Excelsior is treated as a 'fucking huge ship' in the 2290s, and then only by Doctor McCoy, who clearly hadn't been paying attention until then. Nobody seemed to care about its size when the Enterprise crew first encountered it twenty years earlier; Scotty reacted with pure derision and Kirk with playful indifference.

2280s, checking it again. And Uhura has the first 'Would you look at THAT' reaction in the Excelsior's reveal.

No mention of bigness there, as the remark could (and for me for almost my entire life since seeing the movie) expressing surprise that the ship is FINALLY complete and operational.

Like I said, if you want to accept the Kelvin as TOS, you have to accept TOS's conventions

And like I said: the hell I do. Most of TOS' "conventions" exist for stylistic/dramatic reasons, nothing to do with any real or imagined technical capabilities. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief and pretend those conventions make real-world sense (two thirds of them do not) but the show becomes alot more fun when you can EXPLAIN them in real-world terms, adding a layer of believability.

In this case, we finally have a reason why the crew of the Enterprise is content to explore new worlds one half-mile soundstage at a time: because exploring the ENTIRE PLANET is not their job, just single points of interest designated by sensor probes. Larger ships like Kelvin and the new Enterprise would be deployed for more thorough examinations.

Or to put that in terms you can understand: an Aegis cruiser can launch a pair of helicopters and drop a SEAL team behind enemy lines, but it would take an Amphibious Assault Ship (another one of those pesky vessels noticeably larger than a heavy cruiser) to occupy a city or a small country.

 

[ST-One]

Keep in mind that TOS never went to Earth except when going back in time. For all we know, Earth looked like that prior to TMP and the Starbases "out there" were behind in getting upgrades and new paint

Then Dr. Daystrom must have used some outdated-looking parts to build his M-5...

Dr. Marcus must also source from the same vendor...

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x24/The_Ultimate_Computer_150.JPG

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twok/ch5/twok0255.jpg

These have nothing in common.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Mayflower has the problem of some insanely wonky VFX composition. It's listed as a frigate of all things... but I couldn't begin to tell you it's tech layout and how it should work.

Well, for starters the Mayflower isn't "really" the size we see it when it collides with the Enterprise any more than the Bird of Prey is "really" the size it appears when it decloaks for the first time in STIII. As I said earlier - dramatic licence.

The Mayflower's "real" size is how we see it relative to the Enterprise and the rest of the fleet at spacedock. The saucers are all the same as the USS Kelvin's - about 3/4 the size of the Enterprise's and about half the thickness at the rim. Me and Timo have been arguing deck layouts all thread.

How it funtions technically is presumably: Whatever the Stargazer or Reliant uses in lieu of a navigatonal deflector, and a warp drive powered by a warp reactor in the saucer, not unlike many other Starfleet designs.

 

[blssdwlf]

Then Dr. Daystrom must have used some outdated-looking parts to build his M-5...

Dr. Marcus must also source from the same vendor...

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x24/The_Ultimate_Computer_150.JPG

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twok/ch5/twok0255.jpg

These have nothing in common.

Gray box, blinky lights, non-descript panels. Uhm, okay

Edit: Marcus did get newer features like a handle and rotating silver thingabob.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The final word on the size of the USS Kelvin (large image). Here's the comparison with the TOS Enterprise and the Kelvin again.

(this is *so* much more fun than the tutorials for learning Paint Shop Pro on the web)

 

[Timo]

Ha! That secondary hull analysis has me completely convinced now: the creators did go to actual, and rather painstaking, effort to make that ship >450 m long.

What does that mean for the spine docking port, though? Is it situated between two decks or what?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

Ha! That secondary hull analysis has me completely convinced now: the creators did go to actual, and rather painstaking, effort to make that ship >450 m long.

I win!

What does that mean for the spine docking port, though? Is it situated between two decks or what?

I'm not sure. It could be on an oddly placed deck like the TOS Enterprise's shuttlebay observation gallery.

 

[blssdwlf]

The secondary hull docking port on the TMP Enterprise is also between the decks so it's not the first time a docking port is done that way