That's why they call it the blues (Paths of Disharmony SPOILERS)

[ProtoAvatar]

RonG

As for proof on some comments - this back and forth is getting tiresome, as we have a difference of opinion, which cannot be settled by providing more opinions.. you have not proved anything, as there isn;t anything to prove - it's subjective...

You're the one who failed to prove anything you said.

I proved my affirmations with information from canon/trek lit - and you were unable to come with counterarguments beyond ~'because I don't like it'; 'because I say so'.

You equating our affirmations is fallacious.

Still, the fact that the Borg have millions, billions or whatever cubes and that there are other, more powerful enemies / entities out there doesn't mean anything other than that - certainly not that the UFP is "a child" or some nonsense like that..

O, but it does.

The fact that more than a few powers in the galaxy could resist the borg for centuries/could defeat the borg and that the federation was spanked in a few days by the same borg DOES mean that, on the galactic stage, the federation is a child who, until 'Destiny', had delusions of grandeur.

These powers that could actually compete with the borg - these are the true players on the galactic stage, the ones well on their way of becoming adults.

And then there are the evolved energy beings, the rulling class of the multiverse.

By comparison, the federation is laughably weak. A bit player with a FAR too high opinion of itself - until, during 'Destiny', it was showed its place, that is.

 

[RonG]

You're the one who failed to prove anything you said.
I proved my affirmations with information from canon/trek lit - and you were unable to come with counterarguments beyond ~'because I don't like it'; 'because I say so'.

You equating our affirmations is fallacious.

I beg to differ - you haven't proven anything except state your opinion, but hatever floats your boat, I guess

Still, the fact that the Borg have millions, billions or whatever cubes and that there are other, more powerful enemies / entities out there doesn't mean anything other than that - certainly not that the UFP is "a child" or some nonsense like that..

O, but it does.

The fact that more than a few powers in the galaxy could resist the borg for centuries/could defeat the borg and that the federation was spanked in a few days by the same borg DOES mean that, on the galactic stage, the federation is a child who, until 'Destiny', had delusions of grandeur.

These powers that could actually compete with the borg - these were the true players on the galactic stage, the ones well on their way of becoming adults.

And then there are the evolved energy beings, the rulling class of the universe.

By comparison, the federation is laughably weak. A bit player with a FAR too high opinion of itself - until, during 'Destiny' it was showed its place, that is.

You're basically saying that (military) strength is the only criteria for being a "child" or "adult" civilization?

What happens when the time comes, and for dramatic effect, the Trek franchise branches out beyond the milky way and encounters yet another all-powerful race, FAR more powerful than the Borg, Dominion and 8472 combined? will that make their "empires" / civilizations children by comparison? will that make the UFP and "infant"?

IMO, you just got cought up in your own hyperbole. It's ok - happens to the best of us

 

[ProtoAvatar]

RonG

What is the difference between our posts?

I actually put some work in mine, support them with arguments from canon/lit.

You just write anything you like and the only argument you ususally come up with is ~'because I say so'; ~'because I like it so'.
Then you ignore anything I write that you don't like - or alternately, you come with straw-men, like in your previous post.


About maturity:
As far as power/technology/knowledge/etc goes (military or otherwise) the federation IS a child; it's weak, at the beginning of growth. This is, BTW, a hugely important criterion.

The current (and past) instabilities in the federation prove that the federation is a child NOT ONLY as far as power goes, but also politically. It's barely beginning to grow up - and it's highly uncertain that it'll succeed in reaching maturity. How old is the federation? ~250 years? A mere baby - it didn't even came close to proving it's anything resembling a stable/mature/etc society. Quite the contrary, actually.
The true near-adults of the galaxy almost certainly existed for tens of thosands of years, proving their maturity on the political plane, too.

Some self-righteous speeches from Picard or Janeway maturity do not make, RonG.

PS
I already mentioned who's at the top of the universal food chain, RonG:
'And then there are the evolved energy beings, the rulling class of the multiverse.'

 

[RonG]

RonG

What is the difference between our posts?

I actually put some work in mine, support them with arguments from canon/lit.

You just write anything you like and the only argument you ususally come up with is ~'because I say so'. Then you ignore anything I write that you don't like. This is evidenced in all your posts.

Now that's a bit condescending. Just because you have a different opinion, and present weak, circumstantial "evidence", doesn't mean the other person's opinion is any less valid.

saying it again - the proof you "provide" is weak and has very little bearing on the topic i.e. the fact that Janeway s known to have some Borg encounters, doesn't mean that the general public of the UFP even knows her, not to mention connects her to the Borg Invasion. And again - this is my opinion, as no other fact has yet to be presented to the contrary..

About maturity:
As far as power/technology/knowledge/etc goes - military or otherwise - the federation IS a child. This is, BTW, a hugely important criterion.

what I had posted (and you should do the other person the courtesy of reading his comments..), is asking you if you think that's the only criteria. I never said it wasn't important.

Learn. to. Listen

Also, I get your "UFP is a child" mantra, for the nth time you posted it, and I disagree. no need to repeat it every time

The current (and past) instabilities in the federation prove that the federation is a child NOT ONLY as far as power goes, but also politically. It's barely beginnig to grow up - and it's highly uncertain that it'll succeed in reaching maturity.
The true near-adults of the galaxy almost certainly existed for tens of thosands of years, proving their maturity on the political plane, too.

Some self-righteous speeches from Picard or Janeway maturity do not make, RonG.

PS
I already mentioned who's at the top of the universal food chain, RonG:
'And then there are the evolved energy beings, the rulling class of the multiverse.'

again.. your opinion, but then again, you have proof from canon/lit that your opinion is right, so who am I to argue...

 

[BillJ]

As far as the general public knows, it seems to me that it couldn’t know about Picard's personal involvement with the Borg (for example) - *how* would the public know that? *why* would the UFP and Starfleet let it be public knowledge?

The survivors of Wolf 359 would surely remember being hailed by Locutus, as we saw in the DS9 pilot. Sisko remembers that Picard was part of the Borg - and I highly doubt he's the only one. And need I remind you how Sisko treated Picard when they first met *after* that? Sisko was about ready to chop Picard's head off. Don't know about now, though.

Sisko was a Starfleet officer who took part in the engagement. I'm sure the whole business of Picard being Locutus of Borg was swept under the rug by Starfleet and all personnel were ordered to keep their collective mouths shut. YMMV.

And the only way the federation will be saved is by generous use of deus ex machinas; for example:
-suddenly, all federates will be plot-brainwashed into being happy, uncomplaining members of the federation;
-suddenly, the cardassians/ferengi/etc will have a case of temporary insanity and choose to ally themselves with the federation - the losing side in a cold war; even worse, a losing side that, quite likely, will disappear as a significant political entity shortly;
-etc.

Suddenly, the minority of dissatisfied readers move on to another franchise, or original SF, and leave the rest of us to enjoy what the authors are bringing us.

I seriously doubt any book series can afford to be bleeding readers in the current economy.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

RonG

"Learn. to. Listen"
You're talking about yourself.
Have you even read my last post - or posts, in general?
Either you didn't, or you just continually do the 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' routine.


Also - I see you continue with your habit of posting affirmations supported by nothing but you saying ~'because I want it so'. Everything you wrote in your last post - without exception - fits this category.

In these conditions, your claim that my affirmations are supported by 'weak' evidence (a claim you, again, failed to prove in the slightest) is amusing.

 

[RonG]

"Learn. to. Listen"
You're talking about yourself. Have you even read my post?

Yes. All of them. Other than the first one or two, you added nothing... wait, wait.. IMO

Also - I see you continue with your habit of posting affirmations supported by nothing but you saying ~'because I want it so'. Everything you wrote in your last post - without exception - fits this category.

As (a) these are opinions, which you seem unable to understand the concept of , and (b) there is nothing to prove, I don't "want it so", I "think it is so"

In these conditions, your claim that my affirmations are supported by 'weak' evidence (a claim you, again, failed to prove in the slightest) is amusing.

glad to be of service but. since you ask so nicely - here is the example I gave earlier (again: Learn. To. Listen.)

Yes, Janeway is a "celebrity", at least in starfleet (and among friends, relatives and colleagues of starfleet officers). hat was never in question. How you jump from that to presuming Janeway (and by extension the UFP at large) would be blamed for "bugging the Borg" is beyond me... please, if you can explain, I'm all ears

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Sisko was a Starfleet officer who took part in the engagement. I'm sure the whole business of Picard being Locutus of Borg was swept under the rug by Starfleet and all personnel were ordered to keep their collective mouths shut.

You can't keep something like that secret for long.

And don't forget, there were civilians on some of those ships as well. Starfleet cannot order *them* to keep silent, even if the ships' crews do...

If Sisko was ready to wipe the floor with Picard out of revenge (as it sure seemed he was), then multiply that by however many survivors of the battle there were. It won't be pretty.

Assuming some of them still carry a grudge after all these years. Has Sisko mellowed in that regard? What does he think of Picard now?

 

[RonG]

Sisko was a Starfleet officer who took part in the engagement. I'm sure the whole business of Picard being Locutus of Borg was swept under the rug by Starfleet and all personnel were ordered to keep their collective mouths shut.

You can't keep something like that secret for long.

And don't forget, there were civilians on some of those ships as well. Starfleet cannot order *them* to keep silent, even if the ships' crews do...

If Sisko was ready to wipe the floor with Picard out of revenge (as it sure seemed he was), then multiply that by however many survivors of the battle there were. It won't be pretty.

Assuming some of them still carry a grudge after all these years. Has Sisko mellowed in that regard? What does he think of Picard now?

Actually, IIRC the ships were not caught by surprise, but actively made their stand at Wolf 359. Wouldn't it be more logical to assume they first had all civilians disembark?

Also, AFAIK, there weren't *that* many civilians on Starfleet ships, at least not as much as on the Galaxy class, so I'm not sure abour your supposition..

 

[ProtoAvatar]

RonG
"Yes, Janeway is a "celebrity", at least in starfleet (and among friends, relatives and colleagues of starfleet officers)."

As per Voy;Homecoming books, Voyager, Janeway&co are celebrities among Earth's civilian population - at the very least - due to their exploits vs the borg.
I mentioned this at least twice before - and you promptly ignored it.

As for the rest of your post - I already addressed it multiple times - and you, predictably, ignored it. Doing it again is obviously a waste of time.

 

[RonG]

RonG
"Yes, Janeway is a "celebrity", at least in starfleet (and among friends, relatives and colleagues of starfleet officers)."

As per Voy;Homecoming books, Voyager, Janeway&co are celebrities among Earth's civilian population - at the very least - due to their exploits vs the borg.
I mentioned this at least twice before - and you promptly ignored it.

As for the rest of your post - I already addressed it multiple times - and you, predictably, ignored it. Doing it again is obviously a waste of time.

not to be too nitpicky about it, but my full qoute was:
Yes, Janeway is a "celebrity", at least in starfleet (and among friends, relatives and colleagues of starfleet officers). that was never in question. How you jump from that to presuming Janeway (and by extension the UFP at large) would be blamed for "bugging the Borg" is beyond me... please, if you can explain, I'm all ears

notice the part you ignored...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Sisko was a Starfleet officer who took part in the engagement. I'm sure the whole business of Picard being Locutus of Borg was swept under the rug by Starfleet and all personnel were ordered to keep their collective mouths shut.

You can't keep something like that secret for long.

And don't forget, there were civilians on some of those ships as well. Starfleet cannot order *them* to keep silent, even if the ships' crews do...

If Sisko was ready to wipe the floor with Picard out of revenge (as it sure seemed he was), then multiply that by however many survivors of the battle there were. It won't be pretty.

Assuming some of them still carry a grudge after all these years. Has Sisko mellowed in that regard? What does he think of Picard now?

Actually, IIRC the ships were not caught by surprise, but actively made their stand at Wolf 359. Wouldn't it be more logical to assume they first had all civilians disembark?

Also, AFAIK, there weren't *that* many civilians on Starfleet ships, at least not as much as on the Galaxy class, so I'm not sure abour your supposition..

There seemed to be plenty of civilians on the Saratoga, which was the only ship we saw from the inside while Wolf 359 was going on.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

RonG
Already explained how Janeway/Picard can rightly be blamed for provoking the borg - multiple times - in my previous posts.
You, of course, ignored the repeated explanation.
So, again: Why bother repeating myself?

 

[RonG]

You can't keep something like that secret for long.

And don't forget, there were civilians on some of those ships as well. Starfleet cannot order *them* to keep silent, even if the ships' crews do...

If Sisko was ready to wipe the floor with Picard out of revenge (as it sure seemed he was), then multiply that by however many survivors of the battle there were. It won't be pretty.

Assuming some of them still carry a grudge after all these years. Has Sisko mellowed in that regard? What does he think of Picard now?

Actually, IIRC the ships were not caught by surprise, but actively made their stand at Wolf 359. Wouldn't it be more logical to assume they first had all civilians disembark?

Also, AFAIK, there weren't *that* many civilians on Starfleet ships, at least not as much as on the Galaxy class, so I'm not sure abour your supposition..

There seemed to be plenty of civilians on the Saratoga, which was the only ship we saw from the inside while Wolf 359 was going on.

you have a point there

 

[RonG]

RonG
Already explained it - multiple times - in my previous posts.
You, of course, ignored the repeated explanation.
So, again: Why bother repeating myself?

you're right. please don't bother - not on my account, that is.

 

[BillJ]

And don't forget, there were civilians on some of those ships as well. Starfleet cannot order *them* to keep silent, even if the ships' crews do...

I can't believe civilians were allowed to serve on military craft without some sort of 'non disclosure agreement' in place that would carry heavy criminal penalties.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

...so stopping the Borg from destroying/assimilating you is provoking them?

Clearly, the Federation deserves to fall.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

The survivors of Wolf 359 would surely remember being hailed by Locutus, as we saw in the DS9 pilot. Sisko remembers that Picard was part of the Borg - and I highly doubt he's the only one. And need I remind you how Sisko treated Picard when they first met *after* that? Sisko was about ready to chop Picard's head off. Don't know about now, though.

In Family, didn't Robert have some idea of what had happened if not the precise details?

 

[RonG]

The survivors of Wolf 359 would surely remember being hailed by Locutus, as we saw in the DS9 pilot. Sisko remembers that Picard was part of the Borg - and I highly doubt he's the only one. And need I remind you how Sisko treated Picard when they first met *after* that? Sisko was about ready to chop Picard's head off. Don't know about now, though.

In Family, didn't Robert have some idea of what had happened if not the precise details?

as Jean-Luc's next of kin, shouldn't he have been notified by Starfleet as to his brother's "loss"?

 

[Therin of Andor]

You do realise that, in your post, you, for all intents and purposes, admit/confirm the fact you have no viable counterargument, yes?

Correct. You are beyond arguing with. Nothing I say will ever convince you, so you win. The Federation falls, Picard retires, game over.