That's why they call it the blues (Paths of Disharmony SPOILERS)

[TerraUnam]

As an ENT fan that got to me too. I am in mourning for Andor.

Deranged Nasat opinions match my own, so I don't need to repeat that.

But one thing that does mark Andor out is that they've never had any successsful mixed Andorian/non-Andorian offspring. Unlike Vulcans and Humans who have had both had a significant upload of alien genetics into their societies and gene pools. Lt. T'Ryssa Chen is but merely one example. That seems to be the key difference here. Earth, Alpha Centauri and Vulcan have all become very open societies on a family level (no evidence for Tellar). Lots of alien in-laws. The Federation isn't just politics, it's family. On Andor however the Federation is just politics and it appeared to threaten family. Exit Federation.

By the way, was it implied in this novel that Chen was born on Vulcan? I seem to remember that.

Anyway, I don't think that the Federation is going to give up on Andor. They have far more invested in Andor than the Pact does.

I also wonder if the woes of Andor and Deneva can/will be solved by the terraforming tech revealed in Seize the Fire. No society was credited for originating that tech which to me was a glaring omission.

 

[-Brett-]

Perhaps it's just as well that Shran and Archer aren't alive to see this. They gotta be spinning in their graves. All that they worked so hard to build, is now for nothing.

Don't know who or what a "Shran" is, but I'd hardly call two centuries "nothing".

 

[Deranged Nasat]

But one thing that does mark Andor out is that they've never had any successsful mixed Andorian/non-Andorian offspring. Unlike Vulcans and Humans who have had both had a significant upload of alien genetics into their societies and gene pools. Lt. T'Ryssa Chen is but merely one example. That seems to be the key difference here. Earth, Alpha Centauri and Vulcan have all become very open societies on a family level (no evidence for Tellar). Lots of alien in-laws. The Federation isn't just politics, it's family. On Andor however the Federation is just politics and it appeared to threaten family. Exit Federation.

That's well said. It also reminds me of a line in "The Tears of Eridanus" from "Shattered Light", where an Andorian points out "a warrior culture has few sympathies" but that one of the strongest sympathies they do have is for family. As you say, on Andor family and the Federation ended up opposing one another (or so many Andorians came to believe), while it's easier for the other worlds to merge the two. Like Sonek Pran in "A Singular Destiny", who even explicitly says that the Federation is why he exists.

Perhaps it's just as well that Shran and Archer aren't alive to see this. They gotta be spinning in their graves. All that they worked so hard to build, is now for nothing.

Don't know who or what a "Shran" is, but I'd hardly call two centuries "nothing".

Shran was a supporting character in "Enterprise"; an Andorian officer who eventually befriended Captain Archer and promoted the Andorian-Human alliance.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Perhaps it's just as well that Shran and Archer aren't alive to see this. They gotta be spinning in their graves. All that they worked so hard to build, is now for nothing.

Don't know who or what a "Shran" is

Here you go.

but I'd hardly call two centuries "nothing".

Well, it's all over now, innit? So it might as well be nothing.

 

[Ronald Held]

Is the book in B&N or Border's brick and mortar stores yet?

 

[Elias Vaughn]

I got my copy from a B&N store.

 

[Jakks]

Is the book in B&N or Border's brick and mortar stores yet?

My local Borders didn't have it, but the B&N did.

 

[Sci]

but I'd hardly call two centuries "nothing".

Well, it's all over now, innit? So it might as well be nothing.

Really? All those lives the Federation improved on Andor mean nothing because Andor's made a bad -- and reversible -- decision now?

Remember, Cait has seceded from and re-joined the Federation multiple times. There's no need to close the door on Andor forever.

(Though that does raise an interesting question. If Andor were to re-join the Federation -- which I'm sure it eventually will -- would it retain its automatic permanent membership on the Federation Security Council, or would Andor become part of the "Back Eight" or, now, "Back Nine?")

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

All those lives the Federation improved on Andor mean nothing

Apparently the Andorians think so, otherwise why did they secede?

because Andor's made a bad -- and reversible -- decision now?

Reversible? That would depend on whether Andor joins the Typhon Pact, and if so, whether the Pact would ever let them leave *it*. That last bit is extremely unlikely.

If the Federation is smart, they'd play that to their own advantage. Make it clear that the Federation allows worlds to secede, but the Pact would surely not...

 

[Sci]

All those lives the Federation improved on Andor mean nothing

Apparently the Andorians think so,

From what I hear at the beginning of this thread (having not yet read the book), it sounds like a minimal plurality of Andorians think so, not all Andorians.

otherwise why did they secede?

Oh, come off it. Things don't have to last forever to be meaningful.

because Andor's made a bad -- and reversible -- decision now?

Reversible? That would depend on whether Andor joins the Typhon Pact, and if so, whether the Pact would ever let them leave *it*. That last bit is extremely unlikely.

Really? On what basis do you make this claim?

And of course it's reversible. If nothing else, if the Parliament Andoria made it clear that it wanted out of the Pact and back into the Federation, the Federation would almost certainly back them up.

If the Federation is smart, they'd play that to their own advantage. Make it clear that the Federation allows worlds to secede, but the Pact would surely not...

I completely agree that the Federation should make it clear that Membership is never compulsory. I don't think it would be a good idea for the UFP to spread anti-Pact propaganda that is not necessarily true, though.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Reversible? That would depend on whether Andor joins the Typhon Pact, and if so, whether the Pact would ever let them leave *it*. That last bit is extremely unlikely.

Really? On what basis do you make this claim?

Look at all the races that make up the Typhon Pact: Romulans. Tholians. Breen. Kinshaya. Gorn. Do any of them seem like the type who would take kindly to a race leaving?

if the Parliament Andoria made it clear that it wanted out of the Pact and back into the Federation, the Federation would almost certainly back them up.

Perhaps, but they'd probably have to go to war (or at least threaten same) to do it.

 

[Sci]

Reversible? That would depend on whether Andor joins the Typhon Pact, and if so, whether the Pact would ever let them leave *it*. That last bit is extremely unlikely.

Really? On what basis do you make this claim?

Look at all the races that make up the Typhon Pact: Romulans. Tholians. Breen. Kinshaya. Do any of them seem like the type who would take kindly to a race leaving?

Well, as of Rough Beasts of Empire, the single most powerful Typhon Pact state, the Romulan Star Empire, is being run by a moderate who does not feel antagonistically towards the Federation and allows freedom of speech. The Gorn also seem like they're moderate enough to allow a world to leave the Pact.

And, frankly, I have trouble believing that any of them would not allow a state to leave the Pact, simply because they'd all want to retain that option for themselves if it came to it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And, frankly, I have trouble believing that any of them would not allow a state to leave the Pact, simply because they'd all want to retain that option for themselves if it came to it.

Good point, but I find it more likely that the individual Pact races simply don't *care* whether they would be "allowed" to leave, simply because they all believe they are so powerful that they could hold their own if it came down to a shooting match.

 

[Sci]

And, frankly, I have trouble believing that any of them would not allow a state to leave the Pact, simply because they'd all want to retain that option for themselves if it came to it.

Good point, but I find it more likely that the individual Pact races simply don't *care* whether they would be "allowed" to leave, simply because they all believe they are so powerful that they could hold their own if it came down to a shooting match.

I don't think that assertion is borne out by the text. All of the Typhon Pact novels so far have been very clear in noting that the Pact exists because each Pact Member State has decided it derives benefits from it which exceed its costs and that they are all aware of their relative military strength. None of them have any delusions about how powerful they are -- that's part of why the Pact was formed: To make them all more powerful by pooling their resources, because they all recognized that they weren't nearly as powerful by themselves as they were together.

 

[TerraUnam]

And Andor can feed them tales of how the Federation got started and how many teething problems they should expect.

I have no idea what will be done with the Permanent Seat thing. My guess is just left empty because it the books seem to be telling other tales at present.

 

[Therin of Andor]

PS

Spoiler: Therin & Dayton's big secret

Deranged Nasat said: So, "Andor's Folly" was essentially written in the end after all! Dayton Ward said you gave the text a Beta read, Therin. You knew about this!

You know, Deranged Nasat, I hadn't actually made that solid connection in my head until just then.

http://www.reocities.com/therinofandor/Contest.html


Andor's Folly cover - 2003 entry C by Michael Schuster by Therin of Andor, on Flickr

But yeah, not to mention New Therin Park. Unless Jaime Costas blue-pencilled it between beta-read and final.

Tee hee.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Lately, there's been internal strife in the federation, and it barely held together.
Now member worlds are leaving. The andorians - a FOUNDING MEMBER - had no problem leaving.

The main topic of Pocket's very first ST hardcover novel, "Spock's World" (1988) was "Vulcan wants to secede from the UFP".

 

[Ferd Burfel]

I really tend to think Andor is just fed up. Going back to the DS9 novels they voiced concern with the Federation's lack of resources to help them. And they have to see being a Federation member as constantly causing they strife and hardship. They were facing an extinction problem, and being attacked by the Borg didn't help.

And as others have mentioned, the sorrow and battle the Federation has brought upon them hasn't effected other worlds. Earth hung in just fine. Andor has to be beyond pissed.

Now I don't think that they made the best decision. As Sci pointed out, how can you throw away all the good that has come from your relationship? But them joining the Pact does prove to be good for drama.

The Pact isn't the Federation, it's not based on the same principles and values. They are a loose affiliation. And hopefully Andor realizes this. The hard way.

 

[pookha]

Thanks for saving me the cost of the book.

Well, I thought it was very well played.

Oh I'm sure it is but I'm just not interested in where any of this is going. I read the first three books of TP and didn't like any of them and this doesn't sound my cup of tea either, so I'll give it a miss.

yeah really glad i read the spoilers.
very much a miss for me.

 

[fleetcaptain]

PS

Spoiler: Therin & Dayton's big secret

Deranged Nasat said: So, "Andor's Folly" was essentially written in the end after all! Dayton Ward said you gave the text a Beta read, Therin. You knew about this!

You know, Deranged Nasat, I hadn't actually made that solid connection in my head until just then.

http://www.reocities.com/therinofandor/Contest.html


Andor's Folly cover - 2003 entry C by Michael Schuster by Therin of Andor, on Flickr

But yeah, not to mention New Therin Park. Unless Jaime Costas blue-pencilled it between beta-read and final.

Tee hee.

Is that an actual story or just an cover contest? Just was curious.